# Firefighters find flag "offensive"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2001, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869 "2001-09-20T20:22:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/1 "2001-09-20T20:22:55Z")
[Huh?](http://www.miami.com/herald/digdocs/090516.htm) I’m not a jingoistic redneck whoopin’ it up with 30 flags on my pickup…but you’ve GOT to be kidding me. Apparently, stupidity knows no political, social or occupational boundaries. I’m sure that the families of the 200 or so deceased firefighters in NYC appreciate the Miami-Dade firefighters “sensitivity” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/2 "2001-09-20T20:32:38Z")
Oh, for… “Represents oppression”? I hadn’t heard that one about the US flag before. What the hell is wrong with people? They are welcome to bite me on their way to find some place, any place, where the flag doesn’t repressent a country that hasn’t oppressed some one at some time… Oh, and I agree with this sentiment. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hibbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ce73a5/32.png) [@Hibbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hibbins)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/3 "2001-09-20T20:35:12Z")
It must be hell to be so oppressed. :rolleyes: Fortunately this oppressive country allows them to make asinine comments such as that. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/4 "2001-09-20T20:36:18Z")
**bomzaway** mentions it in this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88444](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88444) In brief, I’d take the whole thing with a large grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![pezpunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@pezpunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pezpunk)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/5 "2001-09-20T20:36:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*[Huh?](http://www.miami.com/herald/digdocs/090516.htm) > > I’m not a jingoistic redneck whoopin’ it up with 30 flags on my pickup…but you’ve GOT to be kidding me. > \*\* You would think by now everyone would have stopped using the term redneck but oh well… I agree with you though. It seems like bad timing for a firefighter to find the flag offensive. HOWEVER, if that is their belief then who am I to argue? Isn’t that what America is all about? Being able to express your beliefs without fear of persecution? ---
**Author:** ![Sasquatch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Sasquatch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sasquatch)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/6 "2001-09-20T20:37:19Z")
“…telling crew members that the flag represented oppression.” “Oppression”?? I could understand if they were flying some kind of religious or cultural flag, but the U.S. flag? Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t firefighters (local) government employees? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/7 "2001-09-20T21:08:02Z")
So, tell me, if I’m flying a US flag outside of my house in Miami (assuming, for the sake of this thread, I live in a bouse in Miami–which I never would do until after the folks there come to grips with the fact they’re in the United States now and, yes, there actually is a national government), would those two firefighters do their duty or not. Plus, I seem to remember there are a heck a lot of Cuban flags flying in those parts. Don’t those represent oppression? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/8 "2001-09-20T21:08:41Z")
Seems to me like a couple of guys are trying to make a “statement” of some sort. What kind, I’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/9 "2001-09-20T21:17:59Z")
Hey, if they want to believe the flag represents oppression, go them. But if they’re not going to fulfill their duties of their job because of this belief, fire them. ---
**Author:** ![Zanshin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e274bd/32.png) [@Zanshin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanshin)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/10 "2001-09-20T21:26:49Z")
Sounds to me like a couple of knuckleheads who just didn’t feel like going to work that morning and tried finding a convenient excuse to get out of it. Didn’t work, fellas. Get on the fuckin’ truck. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/11 "2001-09-20T22:15:22Z")
Just another red herring. We’ll see lots of them before this is over. Any pretence to beat up on people who wear diapers on their head, and other folks who do not look just like us. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/12 "2001-09-20T22:56:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*Just another red herring. We’ll see lots of them before this is over. Any pretence to beat up on people who wear diapers on their head, and other folks who do not look just like us. \*\* Huh? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you (a distinct possibility). How is this a red herring?How is this a pretense to beat up on Muslims?. I have no idea (or care) about the ethnicity of these firefighters. Refusing to board a firetruck that has a U.S. flag honoring firefighters in NYC…sees a bit…incredulous. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/13 "2001-09-20T23:01:34Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by pezpunk \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\* > Isn’t that what America is all about? Being able to express your beliefs without fear of persecution? \*\* Who is “persecuting” them? They MAY be admonished for failing to perform their duties as firefighters…and they may receive scorn for their beliefs…so what? Receiving scorn from others, for viewpoints that seem dumb is ALSO part of America (witness the Pit, for example). Women in Afghanistan are being persecuted. These chuckleheads are not being persecuted. Me thinks that the word “persecution” is too easily used. ---
**Author:** ![coosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@coosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coosa)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/14 "2001-09-20T23:08:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Manservant Hecubus \* > \*\*Seems to me like a couple of guys are trying to make a “statement” of some sort. What kind, I’ll never know. \*\* How about: “Hello, I’m stupid.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/15 "2001-09-20T23:18:51Z")
I think that sums it up nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Predeceased](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@Predeceased](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Predeceased)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/16 "2001-09-20T23:22:00Z")
I guess nobody here is old enough to recall the Viet Nam war? Many cops (all cops in southern states) in those days added flags to their shirts to indicate they were hawks. They’d never used the flag that way before, as a political badge, and it did get a backlash, so they were all removed after a while. I’m not saying either way is right or wrong, just that people should be able to recall it happening before. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/17 "2001-09-20T23:23:54Z")
The _Miami Herald_ has an update story [here](http://www.miami.com/herald/special/news/worldtrade/digdocs/062830.htm). The two firefighters who objected are not Muslim: > [@](#): > > Miami-Dade firefighters Jim Moore and Terry Williams objected Saturday to climbing aboard a fire truck that sported a large American flag. The two are not Muslims, as had been widely reported. Their objections have more to do with seeing the flag as a symbol of oppression. > > “When asked as to why the American flag was taken off the truck, Moore responded by saying that the flag was offensive to him,” their supervisor, Lt. Michael Simon, wrote in a memo about the incident. “Williams agreed. Moore stated that the flag was a symbol of oppression to the black man.” > > Williams wrote in a statement that the incident had been blown out of proportion. He wrote that he and Moore removed the flag because it blocked their view and because of their “political view about the country’s situation.” After the incident, the fire chief has ordered all fire engines to carry the flag, and the ACLU supports that decision. (I wonder what ACLU opponents think about that.) There are certainly people in this country that see the government as oppressors. I don’t see a reason to jump all over these fire fighters for their views. I don’t necessarily agree with them, but I agree with **pezpunk** that they have a right to express those views. Their timing certainly was bad. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/18 "2001-09-20T23:39:37Z")
Huh. I’ve been seeing fire trucks flying American flags for at least several years now–I think it may have started back during the Gulf War, but it also seems to have just “stuck” in a lot of places–and personally I think it looks rather jaunty, a nice American flag flying from a big red fire truck on a nice day with a clear blue sky. I’m as big a supporter of individual rights and freedom of speech as anyone. Certainly no citizen should be forced (or pressured into) flying an American flag from their own car or in front of their own home or business. I’m against compulsory salutes to the flag and forced pledges of allegiance. I’m big on the separation of church and state, and against putting religious symbols on public property. I tend to be pretty down on loud majorities trampling the rights of small minorities. But–a government agency can’t display a symbol of the nation of which it is a part on a building or vehicle it operates? I mean, if they’re really that down on The Man, maybe they should reconsider working for any government in any capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/19 "2001-09-21T00:58:35Z")
> [@](#): > > “Williams agreed. Moore stated that the flag was a symbol of oppression to the black man.” Meanwhile , large portions of a black Miami neighborhood burned down while these assholes were refusing to get on the truck. As the man said “If it ain’t true, it oughtta be” ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefighters-find-flag-offensive/82869/20 "2001-09-21T02:53:10Z")
Re: Red Herring The Miami firefighters thing came up in Wildest Bill’s “towel head” thread in this forum. I understood from comments in that thread that the story was of doubtful credibility. May so, maybe not. My point is that Wildest Bill had characterized the firefighters as Muslims. Even if they were and even if the story is true, it has no significance. It is insignificant. It servers only to provide another excuse to beat up on people who are not just like us and who are not marching in lockstep with the vocal majority. It is divisive at a moment when unity of purpose is critical to the national security. Concentrating on any failure to afford proper deference and respect to the national colors is a distraction, a red herring.