# Firefly question: Do you kick the vengeful bad guy into the engine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 23, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151 "2012-07-23T17:43:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/1 "2012-07-23T17:43:28Z")
In a thread I can’t be arsed to link to, someone (probably me) brought up the famous\* moment in the _Firefly_ pilot† in which Malcolm Reynolds, faced with the vengeful henchmen of a mob boss he, Malcolm, has just betrayed‡, offers the henchmen back the money he was paid for the job, only to be told that the henchmen plans to hunt him down and kill him regardless. In response, Mal flat-out murders the henchmen by kicking him into the running engine of his ship, which naturally turns him into meat confetti. [Here’s the scene if anybody needs a reminder](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPRlHwwVIug). And here’s today’s question: was what Malcolm did ethically justifiable? My initial thought was yes, but on a further pondering I’ve decided it’s iffy. Yes, the henchman was a probable danger to Serenity and her crew. But he wasn’t an _immediate_ danger, nor really the _ultimate_ danger; that would come from his boss, Niska, whose name I can’t be bothered to verify the spelling of. The henchman was talking smack, yes, but he is obviously Niska’s man; he does whatever Niska tells him to do, and nothing that Niska forbids. Killing him at that moment isn’t strictly necessary, and does nothing to lessen the danger from the boss. I’m understand why Malcolm did it from a practical point of view, and from an artistic point of view I applaud Joss Whedon’s choice in having it happen – but I’m still not easy about it from an ethical point of view. How about the rest of you? - In certain circles. † Well, it aired first, didn’t it? ‡ For good reason, maybe, but that doesn’t matter with kingpins of crime. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/2 "2012-07-23T17:48:01Z")
I don’t think it was intended to be morally justifiable. Quite the opposite, in fact. It was meant to 1) get immediate results, as illustrated by the reaction of the next henchman, and 2) illustrate Mal’s ruthlessness to warn Niska that he is no easy mark. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/3 "2012-07-23T17:52:48Z")
Obviously it was ethically justifiable…to Mal. It might not be to anyone else, although I’m sure Jayne approved. Either kick him into the engine or risk a member of your crew coming to harm in the future. No brainer. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/4 "2012-07-23T18:00:39Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Obviously it was ethically justifiable…to Mal. It might not be to anyone else, although I’m sure Jayne approved. Either kick him into the engine or risk a member of your crew coming to harm in the future. No brainer. Pretty much. However, the casualness with which it was done may be a bit more problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/5 "2012-07-23T18:07:30Z")
Ethics get tricky when you are living in anarchy. The thing is, Mal had no legal recourse at all. His only option was to try and convince Niska that coming after him would cost more than it was worth. Now, it didn’t work, and Mal may have known it probably wouldn’t work, but it probably delayed the inevitable confrontation (which should have been the first of many). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/6 "2012-07-23T18:21:18Z")
Pre-emptive self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/7 "2012-07-23T18:27:08Z")
One of my favorite scenes. Established Mal as someone with his own set of borderline ethics, linked to protecting his crew and ship at all costs. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/8 "2012-07-23T18:31:36Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > One of my favorite scenes. Established Mal as someone with his own set of borderline ethics, linked to protecting his crew and ship at all costs. Which,of course, is not true. Mal had limits to what he’d do to protect his Serenity and her crew. If he didn’t, he would have kept the stolen medicine, thus avoiding any further problems from Niska. He and Zoe got away clean with it, after all. He was trying to _minimize_ further danger, but he was consciously courting it. Of course, one can make an argument that returning it was also a pragmatic matter–that not doing so would likely have cost him Kaylee once she found out about it, and Wash and Zoe as well. (He’d not have cared about Book at that point.) But I’m not buying it. Mal is willing to do a lot to protect his crew, but there’s limits. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/9 "2012-07-23T19:01:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Mal is willing to do a lot to protect his crew, but there’s limits. Toro droppings. \ ***Simon:** Captain, why did you come back for us? **Mal:** You’re on my crew. **Simon:** Yeah, but you don’t even like me. Why’d you come back? **Mal:** You’re on my crew. Why we still talking about this? \* ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/10 "2012-07-23T19:03:30Z")
Heck no. I could have damaged an expensive engine. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/11 "2012-07-23T19:07:05Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Toro droppings. > > \ ***Simon:** Captain, why did you come back for us? > **Mal:** You’re on my crew. > **Simon:** Yeah, but you don’t even like me. Why’d you come back? > **Mal:** You’re on my crew. Why we still talking about this? \* I’ll agree that there’s practically no limit to what Mal will risk for _himself_ to protect his crew. There’s limits to what Mal will do to _other people_ for his crew. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/12 "2012-07-23T19:14:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > There’s limits to what Mal will do to _other people_ for his crew. \ ***Mal:** Mercy is the mark of a great man. [stab] **Mal:** Guess I’m just a good one. [stab] **Mal:** Well, I’m all right. \* We never got to explore exactly how much Mal would do. But he brought down a government as vengeance for what they did to his crew. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/13 "2012-07-23T19:38:37Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Toro droppings. > > \ ***Simon:** Captain, why did you come back for us? > **Mal:** You’re on my crew. > **Simon:** Yeah, but you don’t even like me. Why’d you come back? > **Mal:** You’re on my crew. Why we still talking about this? \* Keeping the crew out of danger could have been accomplished by delivering the stolen goods. Niska made it clear what he would do if Mal failed. It was his inability to deprive the townspeople of medicine that lead to the danger. In effect, Mal is betrayed by his own morality. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/14 "2012-07-23T19:55:57Z")
If I’m the ship’s captain, Skald, I’m always kicking the vengeful bad guy into the engines. BTW, I would like some hashish in my brownies. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/15 "2012-07-23T19:58:59Z")
I’m not sure why it requires being ethically anything. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/16 "2012-07-23T20:03:45Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I’m not sure why it requires being ethically anything. Threads require hooks. But Malcolm is in fact a fairly ethical (though not moral) guy. He has a code he works at at sticking to. He’s a thief, yes, but the list of things he won’t do for money is a hell of a lot longer than the list of things on the other side. > [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > If I’m the ship’s captain, Skald, I’m always kicking the vengeful bad guy into the engines. BTW, I would like some hashish in my brownies. That violates _my_ ethics. If I can’t make you deliriously, orgasmically happy with an un-adulterated brownie, I have failed as a baker and a man. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/17 "2012-07-23T20:08:37Z")
I am of the opinion that Mal has a very strict and fairly internally consistent code of ethics, and fairly strong morals. That code bears very little resemblance to what external organizations, individuals, or religions would consider ethical or moral, but hey - at least he’s consistent! As for me, I wouldn’t have kicked the dude into the engine because I never think of cool appropos shit like that until I’m lying awake at 3 am the next day. However, I am of the opinion that I would have tried to do \*\*something \*\*to indicate to Niska that I am of the “not worthwhile to fuck with” denomination of shady characters. That was his actual goal. Didn’t work, but he was right - Niska should have taken the hint. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/18 "2012-07-23T20:24:59Z")
If I were in Mal’s place, I’d have done the same thing. But that’s an important caveat - were I _myself_, I’d never have gotten myself in that position in the first place. It’s all very well talking about the ethics of pre-emptive self defence when the ethics of \*not stealing stuff \*in the first place hasn’t been broached. Also, I’d have put some sort of gun on the damn ship. Or missiles, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/19 "2012-07-23T20:32:39Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Heck no. I could have damaged an expensive engine. That’s what bothers me most about that scene, too. I mean, it’s still an awesome scene–especially on first viewing. But every time I rewatch it, I always think “Wouldn’t that fuck up the engine?” ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151/20 "2012-07-23T20:33:59Z")
Oh, and I didn’t vote because there was no “Kaylee, Inara, and Zoe 3way” option. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-question-do-you-kick-the-vengeful-bad-guy-into-the-engine/629151.md?page=2)