# Firefly: What did the Alliance want? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 30, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435 "2015-08-30T22:21:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/41 "2015-08-31T18:55:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Within the context of twelve episodes of TV and one movie, there is no solid answer, and there really doesn’t need to be. What matters is that they did fight, the Alliance won, and the hero of the story was on the losing side. “The Alliance” is simply The Man, and the Independents were the rebels. That is really all one needs to know. The moral position of either side is never reliably explained and doesn’t matter a whole lot. I count this as an explanation: > [@Mal](#): > > Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? **They’ll swing back to the belief that they can make people… better.** And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin’. I aim to misbehave. They. MEDDLE. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/42 "2015-08-31T18:57:48Z")
And that’s kind of the real answer… they were _government_. Which as everyone knows, is\* bad\*. No further explanation needed. Hey, it worked for _Hunger Games_. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/43 "2015-08-31T19:28:14Z")
They tried to mind-control the population of an entire planet and killed 30 million people. Their reaction was “Whoops… let’s get outta here.” Granted, the crew didn’t know about Miranda during the rebellion, but Mal didn’t seem particularly surprised by the details of the story once he found out. None of them did. They weren’t _happy_, but their reaction amounted to “Yep, that’s the Alliance for ya.” ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/44 "2015-08-31T19:47:29Z")
“He killed me. He killed me with a sword. How weird is that?” I was eager to find out more about Book, the River training, the inner worlds day to day stuff, etc… in coming eps the next few seasons. What a bummer. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/45 "2015-08-31T20:47:21Z")
I’m not sure the Alliance’s form of government and its motivations were any more thought out than the Federation’s form of government in _Star Trek_. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/46 "2015-08-31T22:28:33Z")
I think the Firefly Universe’s screwed-up geometry leads to all kinds of screwed-up contradictions in the series and the movie. It’s a swarm of populated planets, apparently in different star systems, yet you can get to any of them in … what? a couple of days maybe? How long did the war really take? How could a while planet disappear and nobody notices, or doesn’t notice someone’s blacked out a portion of all the maps? We’re given such a nebulous picture of their world, a picture that doesn’t gibe well at all with what we would expect of it. And as we each find a way to understand what happens on the show, our attempts are directed to one degree or another by our rationale of their physical universe. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/47 "2015-08-31T22:38:10Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I think the Firefly Universe’s screwed-up geometry leads to all kinds of screwed-up contradictions in the series and the movie. It’s a swarm of populated planets, apparently in different star systems, yet you can get to any of them in … what? a couple of days maybe? The movie made it explicit that everything was taking place in one “super” solar system with dozens and dozens of inhabitable planets. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/48 "2015-08-31T22:41:41Z")
Here’s the map of the system: [http://i.imgur.com/mEUkQFp.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/mEUkQFp.jpg) It’s a bunch of stars orbiting one big star. Lots of planets, even more moons. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/49 "2015-08-31T22:42:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Those petty little fiefdoms _are_ the Alliance. When the common people started threatening the idle rich’s ability to play cowboy on their own private planets, those idle rich used whatever means the rich use in the 'Verse to pressure the government to crush them. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > A history of earth’s colonial eras and empires shows that the imperial powers rarely gave much of a shit about the nations and regions they controlled, but the routes and freight were jealously guarded, as were the spoils. So the Alliance not giving much of a damn about the outer planets as long as they stayed out of their way and didn’t interfere or compete with shipping lanes… that makes sense. Two very good answers. I hope whoever revives the property (eventually) has ideas like this in mind. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/50 "2015-08-31T23:23:48Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > But they didn’t keep it secret. In the movie, they say the Alliance put out a call for settlers on Miranda. After everything went haywire is when they covered it up. Which then kind of makes sense as wouldn’t people remember that huge advertising campaign about some planet no one talks about anymore and can no longer travel to because it’s no longer on any maps? > [@](#): > > enalzi Here’s the map of the system: > [Complete map of the verse - Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/mEUkQFp.jpg) It’s a bunch of stars orbiting one big star. Lots of planets, even more moons. I’m no astrophysicist, but I feel that it would be really hard to have a bunch of planets with stable, circular orbits in a system of 5 stars. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/51 "2015-08-31T23:26:58Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > How could a while planet disappear and nobody notices, or doesn’t notice someone’s blacked out a portion of all the maps? Maps? What about telescopes? The planet has to be orbiting one of the 5 stars in the region close enough to support life. Which means some other planet has to be able to see it (not to mention space traffic). Heck, we can detect planets in other solar systems with our technology and we can travel past our moon. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/52 "2015-08-31T23:54:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The movie made it explicit that everything was taking place in one “super” solar system with dozens and dozens of inhabitable planets. I suggest that the alliance has FTL, to get people to this super solar system, which no one else can afford, just as no one person or group can afford an aircraft carrier today. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/53 "2015-09-01T00:18:48Z")
There were always a few aspects I had to guess at, but here was how it sounded to me: The Alliance was probably a “movement” of some kind led by or which co-opted the inner-planets’ government. Inara mentioned supporting Unification, and Mal did not much appreciate it. Thus, when they tried to exert control outside their old and wealthy region, it probably wasn’t a big surprise to everyone else. It may be a republic and/or democracy, but it’s very clear that power is not shared equally. Although vague, it sounded very much as though there was an influential inner circle who controlled things, along with a much wider outer-circle of well-off citizens. The inner circle seems to consider everyone else expendable tools. If I had to guess at a motive for the exact deployment of power we see, it was simply down to cost-benefit. The Alliance exerted power because it could, and because doing so would disrupt any possible threat. The outer systems might be getting too powerful, so the Alliance broke and subjugated them with brute force. However, scattered civvies, outlaws, local landlords, and so on? No threat at all, and easily driven off or co-opted if and when necessary. The Alliance used its power to disrupt any and all other powers which might rise, but other than that doesn’t care about what people to each other do as long as it gets its own cut. It’s basically just Nishka with space fleets. You don’t need a garrison on every planet when you control space. The really damning thing about the Alliance was that it apparently tried vinegar, extra vinegar, and then finally lots of vinegar. It doesn’t sound very much as though they ever considered honey. Ironically, given the power of the central planets, it probably would have been easier to lure worlds in one at a time with the advantages of Alliance membership. In that sense, it always sounded to me as though it was a bit of “Evil Star Trek Federation”. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/54 "2015-09-01T00:24:42Z")
If the Alliance controls the media, many aspects of everyday life, and has subliminal messaging, they could essentially stop all talk about Miranda. Tho some few might “remember,” they would likely be quickly silenced. Such a cover up would have a similar effect as secrecy. We’ve seen in eps/movie just how ruthless some parts of the Alliance can be. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/55 "2015-09-01T00:29:19Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > If you dropped in on Montana for a few hours in 1870, how likely is it you’d see overt evidence of this control? Might it not look like the (few) locals were pretty much doing their own thing, by their own codes? I don’t think this comparison works, because the US in 1870 had limited capability to project power into the Western territories. The Alliance, however, assembled a sizeable armada rather quickly outside Mr. Universe’s planet, which indicates to me that they have significant power projection capabilities in the outer planets. On top of that, as I’ve already mentioned, they built the Miranda colony way out in the boonies, which would have been dumb if they didn’t have the means to project power out there. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/56 "2015-09-01T00:35:42Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The really damning thing about the Alliance was that it apparently tried vinegar, extra vinegar, and then finally lots of vinegar. It doesn’t sound very much as though they ever considered honey. Ironically, given the power of the central planets, it probably would have been easier to lure worlds in one at a time with the advantages of Alliance membership. In that sense, it always sounded to me as though it was a bit of “Evil Star Trek Federation”. This is another thing I’ve wondered about. In the first episode, Zoey says that the Alliance will drop settlers on a newly terra-formed planet with little in the way of resources. Which makes little sense if you’re trying to establish control. Put an Alliance medical center and Alliance security and Alliance goodies on the planet, though, and a lot of people are just going to naturally fall in line because they get their needs taken care of. Dump people on a planet with little help, though, and they aren’t going to be loyal soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/57 "2015-09-01T00:44:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I suggest that the alliance has FTL, to get people to this super solar system, which no one else can afford, just as no one person or group can afford an aircraft carrier today. I think they were generation ships. The backstory behind the show is that a long time ago, the Earth got wrecked and became uninhabitable, so an American-Chinese alliance settled the Firefly solar system, starting out by terraforming two planets they named Sihnon and Londinium. In the present, Londinium is the political capital of the Alliance and Sihnon is the cultural capital. I think the idea is that the Alliance claims the entire system, but it’s a big system, and they can’t effectively project power into the Outer Planets. So, really, all the Outer Planets see of the Alliance are Alliance patrols and requisitions. Added to that, the fact that a lot of the colonists on the Outer Planets are there because they’re uncomfortable with the social stratification and and control in the Core, and you get the Rebellion. Politically, I think you’re meant to get the impression that the Alliance is formally democratic, but in practice, pretty oligarchic. I think the basic bargain the Alliance has made with the people of the Core Worlds is “We’ll make sure you always have enough to eat. We’ll make sure you always have a decent place to sleep. We’ll make sure that you have decent medical care. We’ll make sure that, if you can’t take care of yourself, somebody will take care of you. We’ll make sure you have a job. We’ll make sure you’re safe, we’ll make sure your kids are educated, we’ll make sure you have whatever you need to make you comfortable and happy. In exchange, you keep your head down, don’t cause trouble, and live your life.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/58 "2015-09-01T01:28:57Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think they were generation ships. Horse puckey. There is no immediate profit, and the controlling folks are not nice guys. If we can assume the technology to get them there in hundreds of years instead of thousands, we can assume FTL. Generation ships, forsooth! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/59 "2015-09-01T02:36:33Z")
It is pretty clear that faster than light travel is not available in the _Firefly_ universe, else the Alliance would be exploring more than just “the ‘Verse’”. That the multi-star planetary system described in the diagram is completely impossible is neither here nor there; it is clear that Whedon and Minear had little interest in physical practicality. Nor is the film entirely consistent with the show. But regardless, in the world of _Firefly_, the crew of _Serenity_ are criminals, committing crimes (including armed robbery). Mal seems quite happy to describe himself as a “naughty man” who “aims to misbehave”. Jayne openly seeks oppurnities for violence and even any excuse for killing. (“I’ll kill a man in a fair fight…or if I think he’s going to start a fair fight. If he bothers me, or if there’s a woman…or if I’m getting paid…especially when I’m getting paid.”) These are not people you want living in your neighborhood. Even Book is not above “shooting kneecaps” (albeit the kneecaps of other criminals). Only Kaylee, and perhaps River (by dint of insanity) can be described as totally innocent of committing crimes. Whedon’s comment in the DVD special features explains his motivation: “Whenever you create some kind of utopia, you find something ugly working underneath it.” It’s not the Alliance at large that is a threat to freedom or liberty; it’s the small but controlling minority behind the scenes–some small but powerful group of senators in the Parliament, and operatives on their behalf–trying to create their version of perfection that is the real threat. It’s a libertarian-esque view of the evils of governance, and while it might not be entirely unjustified, it is also coming from the standpoint of a very biased viewpoint, someone who lives by exploiting others and intentionally seeking out criminal opportunities. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/60 "2015-09-01T03:15:09Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > But what were the Alliance and the Browncoats fighting over? And does the Alliance actually give a crap about the outer planets? I can’t believe we’re still doing this thread. Have you ever actually **read** any of the outer planets’ Articles of Secession? Mal doesn’t like to talk about it now, but EVERY SINGLE ONE of them mentions slavery as the main reason for secession. That was their entire reason for fighting the war. Sure, okay, maybe the Alliance wasn’t fighting the war over slavery. But the outer planets indisputably were. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435.md?page=4)