# Firefly: What did the Alliance want? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 30, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435 "2015-08-30T22:21:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/81 "2015-09-02T23:06:34Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Really? There seems to be plenty of opportunities for “shipping and salvage” without having to resort to pulling a heist on a pharmaceutical shipment or ripping off a mining company’s payroll. Mal, like Neil McCauley in Michael Mann’s _Heat_, seems pretty bound to the lifestyle of the intransigent thief. He has no aversion to stealing property that belongs to others. He is willing to injure or even kill people who stand in his way. He uses some past injustice as excuse for his actions (while proclaiming that he needs no excuse). He hires on a crew member who is an unabashed sociopath. That he ultimately performs an act which reveals a conspiracy that is not apparent to average citizens, or likely even leading politicians of the Alliance is almost incidental. In his own words, he “aims to misbehave”. Mal is spoiling for a fight–a point made repeatedly in the show preceding the film–and looks for conflict even when it could be avoided. He is _The Outlaw Josey Wales_ in the _Star Wars_ milieu. He is spoiling for a fight, any fight, which is a concern even to his closest shipmates. > > Stranger I think to Mal, the government is illegitimate and evil. Therefore stealing from this government is not immoral in general. I don’t recall him stealing from anyone that wasn’t either working for the government or a criminal himself. The guy with the Lassiter commited genocide to get it. From Mal’s point of view cooperating with the government is the banal evil that will enable it to keep its power. The only other jobs to have are that of an outlaw, so that’s what he has to be. Even as an outlaw he still operates by a code. “He does the job. He gets paid.” Although it’s not entirely clear how bad the government actually is in this world. I agree with your thoughts about that much of the stuff is carried out by an extra-legal organisation, and that we get the colored version from Mal. But if we assume that the alliance is basically a corrupt police state, then he has some justification. Of course, he also enjoys this sort of life. But even so, I don’t think he would’ve been a criminal if he thought he could morally work with the government. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/82 "2015-09-02T23:40:29Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Really? There seems to be plenty of opportunities for “shipping and salvage” without having to resort to pulling a heist on a pharmaceutical shipment or ripping off a mining company’s payroll. Mal, like Neil McCauley in Michael Mann’s _Heat_, seems pretty bound to the lifestyle of the intransigent thief. He has no aversion to stealing property that belongs to others. He is willing to injure or even kill people who stand in his way. He uses some past injustice as excuse for his actions (while proclaiming that he needs no excuse). He hires on a crew member who is an unabashed sociopath. That he ultimately performs an act which reveals a conspiracy that is not apparent to average citizens, or likely even leading politicians of the Alliance is almost incidental. In his own words, he “aims to misbehave”. Mal is spoiling for a fight–a point made repeatedly in the show preceding the film–and looks for conflict even when it could be avoided. He is _The Outlaw Josey Wales_ in the _Star Wars_ milieu. He is spoiling for a fight, any fight, which is a concern even to his closest shipmates. > > Stranger I’ve read endless descriptions of the show as a space western. I don’t see Mal as a cowboy hero. I see him as much closer to a samurai,and a ronin at that. He is too … well, “brutal” is too strong a word … Maybe “ruthless and calculating” is better. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/83 "2015-09-02T23:54:43Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’ve read endless descriptions of the show as a space western. I don’t see Mal as a cowboy hero. I see him as much closer to a samurai,and a ronin at that. He is too … well, “brutal” is too strong a word … Maybe “ruthless and calculating” is better. Hell, they are crooks. 🙂 There is a nasty, evil government, but they are crooks like Josie Wales, Frank and Jesse James. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/84 "2015-09-02T23:56:55Z")
Whatever happened to Randolph Scott? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/85 "2015-09-03T00:06:13Z")
> [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > Whatever happened to Randolph Scott? He [ran off](https://kategale.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/cary-grant-y-randolph-scott.jpg) with [Cary Grant.](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sqJ03O3QnuU/UtjJf3cF4VI/AAAAAAAAj70/WBBPtLw_wAM/s1600/cary+grant+randolph+scott.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/86 "2015-09-03T00:36:49Z")
That killed the thread. See my sig. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/87 "2015-09-03T15:23:49Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > What where they watching in 2002 that was so important that this show had to go? Monk? CSI: Miami? Hey, don’t go slamming the Monk! That was a great show. But neither of your examples were even on Fox. Nope, the show that HAD to be on was [Fastlane.](http://blog.platypustv.com/?p=105). (OK technically, it was Bernie Mac and American Idol, who got the prime spot that Fastlane had, when Fastlane moved to the Firefly “death slot”.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/88 "2015-09-03T15:40:48Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > What where they watching in 2002 that was so important that this show had to go? The network didn’t show the series in order. Some folks were annoyed at a prostitute as a character. There was some nudity. And they were crooks. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/89 "2015-09-03T16:30:39Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’ve read endless descriptions of the show as a space western. I don’t see Mal as a cowboy hero. I see him as much closer to a samurai,and a ronin at that. He is too … well, “brutal” is too strong a word … Maybe “ruthless and calculating” is better. Mal isn’t a cowboy hero. He’s a robbery gang anti-hero. The analogies to the Wild West are historical as well as situational and cultural. The earliest criminal gangs of the Wild West formed initially as Confederate raiders. Usually, irregulars, like Quantrill’s Raiders (who Jesse James rode with). I can’t find much evidence of Confederate regulars who formed outlaw gangs to take their vengeance on the winners of the Civil War, but I could imagine it might have happened. And, to be honest, I don’t know the degree to which the Browncoats qualified as a regular uniformed armed force (in the Laws of War sense). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/90 "2015-09-03T16:38:13Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > And, to be honest, I don’t know the degree to which the Browncoats qualified as a regular uniformed armed force (in the Laws of War sense). That usually depends upon who won the war. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/91 "2015-09-03T17:44:11Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > We actually see little in terms of authoritarianism and only one incidence of corruption (“The Message”) by official Alliance agents and organizations. Just wanted to point out that in “Ariel,” Jayne sells out River and Simon for the reward, but is instead betrayed by the Alliance “Station/Precinct Commander,” and is instead arrested on some sort of “Aiding and Abetting” charge right alongside Simon and River. And the commanding officer makes it pretty clear that he’s doing it so that _he_ can collect the reward. Also, in “Trash” we find out (albeit from YoSaffBridge, so this may not be the best example :rolleyes:) that Durran Haymer gassed entire settlements with chemical warfare just so as he could come in and get first dibs on any “loot” he could lay hands on for his collection. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/92 "2015-09-03T18:35:53Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > But I think the main reason it didn’t last long is because it was on network TV, as opposed to a cable channel like Sci-Fi, where it probably could have had a 7-year run. Science fiction hasn’t seemed to fare well on network TV for the past couple of decades (with a few exceptions, like Lost). Another piece to that puzzle is that back in 2002, your choices for original programming were network shows, and syndicated stuff, most of which was schlocky and crap like “Cleopatra 2525” and “Mutant X”. The cable networks were starting to get going with good original programming as well. Put simply, the landscape was very different. You didn’t have the 3 networks, several pay cable channels like HBO, and several other cable channels like A&E, Sci-Fi, AMC and FX cranking out original programming. All 3 of A&E, AMC and FX had serious format changes in 2002-2003, which set the stage for what they are today. Back then, “Firefly” didn’t have enough ratings to cut it on network TV, and syndication wasn’t probably in the cards- Babylon 5 had an awfully hard time going that route with a somewhat more conventional show than a “space western”. If “Firefly” came out today on a cable channel and got the same ratings it had then, it would likely be considered a solid success. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/93 "2015-09-03T20:10:42Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Mal isn’t a cowboy hero. He’s a robbery gang anti-hero. > … > And, to be honest, I don’t know the degree to which the Browncoats qualified as a regular uniformed armed force (in the Laws of War sense). Agreed; Mal is more Josey Wales or Pike Bishop than John Wayne or Gary Cooper. He is portrayed as being symapathetic (at least, to his crew, and also in the case of Saffron) but is also shown as capable of committing acts of utter brutality without blinking an eye (albeit humorously in the case of the executed henchman in “The Train Job”.) The Browncoats appeared to be an irregular force (lacking uniforms or consistent weapons) but they did appear to have a rank structure and other formalities of an organized militia. A goodly portion of the Provisional Army of the Confederate States began as or were conscripted from irregular (not formally authorized) militia. The “professional” Army of the Confederate States of America was much smaller even on paper and never even grew to the planned level. A considerable amount of fighting in the deep South was done by state militias that were not under direct control of the Confederate government. One can imagine a similar situation for the apparently loose confederation of worlds which may have been under a variety of government or cooperative interests. > [@ExTank](#): > > Just wanted to point out that in “Ariel,” Jayne sells out River and Simon for the reward, but is instead betrayed by the Alliance “Station/Precinct Commander,” and is instead arrested on some sort of “Aiding and Abetting” charge right alongside Simon and River. And the commanding officer makes it pretty clear that he’s doing it so that _he_ can collect the reward. > > Also, in “Trash” we find out (albeit from YoSaffBridge, so this may not be the best example :rolleyes:) that Durran Haymer gassed entire settlements with chemical warfare just so as he could come in and get first dibs on any “loot” he could lay hands on for his collection. Fair enough; in any large bureaucracy there will be plenty of opportunity for graft, and people who will exploit it. But the Alliance does not appear to be an oppressive, utterly authoritarian regime; in many ways they appear liberal and progressive, albeit with an undercurrent of constant surveillance for subversive or counter-institutional influences. But it seems pretty clear that the organization behind the Pax program and the neurobehavior modification performed on River Tam (and presumably others) was shadowy and covert even among government officials, and the people operating it sought to conceal it from any formal oversight, i.e. more _Parallax View_ than _Nineteen Eighty-Four_. Mal’s basic disagreement with the Alliance isn’t their authoritarianism per se; it’s that he wants to do whatever he pleases without any oversight or interference. And it’s clear that some of the things he likes to do are steal, fight, and occasionally throw people he doesn’t like into a turbofan. > [@bump](#): > > Another piece to that puzzle is that back in 2002, your choices for original programming were network shows, and syndicated stuff, most of which was schlocky and crap like “Cleopatra 2525” and “Mutant X”. The cable networks were starting to get going with good original programming as well. A fair portion of the blame for the failure of _Firefly_ to gain an audience was the mispromotion combined with a constant changing of viewing schedule. In retrospect, it seems clear that someone in Fox Television wanted to kill off the show rather than having to invest more money into it. Many show contracts have requirements for renewal (or at least, “pay to play” agreements with production houses and creators) if a show hits a certain ratings threshold, so a television executive sabotaging a show that he or she doesn’t believe will be successful or have legs is far from unheared of. “How can you tell when a network executive is lying? His lips move!” – Max Headroom Stranger ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/94 "2015-09-03T21:06:30Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > A fair portion of the blame for the failure of _Firefly_ to gain an audience was the mispromotion combined with a constant changing of viewing schedule. In retrospect, it seems clear that someone in Fox Television wanted to kill off the show rather than having to invest more money into it. Many show contracts have requirements for renewal (or at least, “pay to play” agreements with production houses and creators) if a show hits a certain ratings threshold, so a television executive sabotaging a show that he or she doesn’t believe will be successful or have legs is far from unheared of. > > “How can you tell when a network executive is lying? His lips move!” – Max Headroom > > Stranger Network execs and programming directors (or whatever the job title is) seemed to be notably clueless about science-fiction shows between about 1993 and about 2005. All sorts of schedule swaps, showing episodes out of order, etc… It’s very much like these guys had no idea that for the most part, the core audience for these shows was either deliberately planning around the air times, or time-shifting via VCR to watch the shows. It’s like they somehow seriously thought that there was some kind of transient non-sci-fi fan audience out there to capture, which in my experience, was NOT the case in that time frame. Nobody tuned in to Babylon 5 and watched it casually, and the same probably went for Firefly. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/95 "2015-09-04T01:59:28Z")
Here’s an article in Business Insider that talks basically about how Fox completely mismanaged Firefly. Basically, there were all sorts of conflicts between Whedon and Fox about the show’s content, and Fox tried to market it as a comedy instead of a drama. > **[It's Amazing How Badly Fox Screwed Up Joss Whedon's 'Firefly'](https://www.businessinsider.com/fox-screwed-up-firefly-2014-9)** > > Joss Whedon's space western was canceled after a season. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/96 "2015-09-04T02:12:55Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > What was that part he put off replacing until it almost killed him? Catalyzer on the port compression coil. Well, really it was the compression coil he put off replacing, and catalyzer on it that eventually went kablooey. (I may have named my second born after Kaylee. The first born was already named, so he’s lucky he’s not named Wash.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/97 "2015-09-04T02:13:53Z")
They are clueless. They have to have the “Magical Alien Hybrid Child” who ages quickly and become a sexy babe. The reason I gave up on _Falling Skies_. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/98 "2015-09-04T13:29:10Z")
> [@](#): > > They have to have the “Magical Alien Hybrid Child” who ages quickly and become a sexy babe. Cow fetus. Mutant cow fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/99 "2015-09-04T14:38:30Z")
Also, sexy teenage aliens who go to high school, played by actors in their late 20s. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435/100 "2015-09-07T02:41:08Z")
I thought the motivation of the alliance was clear - it is a progressive government, trying to make people ‘better’ by meddling in other cultures and forcing them to conform to the rules the Alliance thinks are ‘better’. The tragedy on Miranda was analogous to the eugenics movement or China’s one-child policy - attempts by progressives to use force to ‘improve’ society. TEACHER: With all the social and medical advancements we can bring to the Independents, why would they fight so hard against us? RIVER: We meddle. TEACHER: River? RIVER: People don’t like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don’t run don’t walk. We’re in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right. We’re meddlesome. TEACHER: River, we’re not telling people what to think. We’re just trying to show them how. A perfect description of the condescending elitism of progressivism. I picture people like this teacher sitting around with her friends talking about those rebels and their crazy ways, reading books like "What’s the Trouble With Persephone?’, and pointing out that only crazy people wouldn’t see the value of giving up a little freedom for better health care. All they need is to be shown the ‘right’ way to think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firefly-what-did-the-alliance-want/729435.md?page=6)