# Firing people; that easy?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 11, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964 "2006-07-11T03:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![seenidog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@seenidog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seenidog)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/21 "2006-07-11T12:55:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by \*\*Martin Hyde \*\* > Also, just for the record, to my knowledge 49 states are “at will.” So I’m not sure making that designation is really very important. The only state that isn’t “at will” is Montana. So unless you are talking about employment in Montana I think it is safe to just assume that in any discussion about employment in America it is in an “at will” state. Good point. My entire work history is in Illinois and Wisconsin. I never really thought about what an alternate system might look like. Could you please explain, or refer me to a place I can learn what the Montana system is like? It has inspired a certain amount of curiousity in me. Not that I have a problem with at-will. I have been laid off a few times, that will happen. I got fired once, and it was my own damn fault (that will not happen again). As far as I can see the the at will system works. As pointed out by others, various mechanisms such as umemployment contributions, unions, civil litigation and civil rights laws tend to make employers think twice before firing at will. ---
**Author:** ![galen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecc23a/32.png) [@galen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/22 "2006-07-11T13:35:08Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I think this thread is giving a slightly skewed view of the real situation. In “at will” states, the employer may discharge an employee for no particular reason, HOWEVER, it had better be no particular reason. If a person is fired for their race, sex, age, ethnic identity, or place of national origin (and the fired employee can demonstrate that that played a part in the firing), the Federal government can come in and give the company a lot of grief–grief that the company would prefer to avoid. Most large corporations, in order to avoid being hammered by accusations of discriminatory firing, have established internal procedures that must be followed in order to terminate an employee. Even if the employee does not secure a formal signed contract with the company, the courts look on the documented internal procedures as if they were contracts and an employee fired in violation of a company procedure (too few warnings, too few written warnings, management failure to document the problems and warnings) gives the employee an enormous edge if they choose to sue the company for wrongful dismissal. Those sort of barriers tend to reduce the number of persons who are simply hurled out into the street because they wore the wrong colored socks to work one morning. In 40 years in the labor force, I have only known of a handful of dismissals that appeared to be based on the whim of a boss–and they were nearly all low-paying, dead-end jobs from which the fired employee was probably delighted to be released. This is not to say that there are no wrongful dismissals, but few employees creep about their workplace in constant fear for their jobs. [/QUOTE] Unless you try to organize a union. Then you’d _better_ keep your nose squeaky clean or you will be fired on \*any \* pretext. The statistics are that one person is fired for every twenty organized. Tens of thousands of people are fired in the US each year for union activity. Most of the time, the bosses get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/23 "2006-07-11T14:42:43Z")
The flip side is that for many employers it’s “that easy” to hire someone. Coming from a non-profit background where there are all kinds of hoops to go through in hiring someone, I’m always amused by TV shows that have a boss simply meeting someone they like and hiring them on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/24 "2006-07-11T15:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] it had better be no particular reason. If a person is fired for their race, sex, age, ethnic identity, or place of national origin (and the fired employee can demonstrate that that played a part in the firing), the Federal government can come in and give the company a lot of grief–grief that the company would prefer to avoid.. [/QUOTE] Right. And as **boytyperanma** said, if they do fire you without “cause” they have to pay you Unemployment, and perhaps severance pay (depending on the job). And then, they have to waste time, money and effort breaking in and training another new dude. So, as Tomndebb has said- this ort of thing doesn’t happen much expect in crappy dead-end jobs anyway. But if you really want job security, there are plenty of Jobs in the USA that have it- I have one. Government jobs usually pay a bit less but have scads of job security- Teaching usually has even more job security. And, of course, generally the reverse is true- the Empoyee has the same right to “fire” his boss by resigning. America has very high job productivity. I’d guess the 'at-will" system helps with that. Jobs that have tenure (Like Civil Service) are usually _considered_ to have lower job productivity. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/25 "2006-07-11T16:45:55Z")
> [@](#): > > a) Why would you want to work somewhere where you’d be fired if not for the laws protecting you? Yes. I am good at my job. What’s more, I can pretty much count on my colleagues to be good at theirs, because they are still employed. The at-will employment laws allow incompetent people to be fired, which frees up employment for competent people. Anyone who’s been stuck working with an incompetent jackass knows what a relief it is to see that person let go, or to seek employment elsewhere themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/26 "2006-07-11T16:50:46Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Right. And as **boytyperanma** said, if they do fire you without “cause” they have to pay you Unemployment, and perhaps severance pay (depending on the job). And then, they have to waste time, money and effort breaking in and training another new dude. So, as Tomndebb has said- this ort of thing doesn’t happen much expect in crappy dead-end jobs anyway. But if you really want job security, there are plenty of Jobs in the USA that have it- I have one. Government jobs usually pay a bit less but have scads of job security- Teaching usually has even more job security. [/QUOTE] Right. It’s expensive to fire someone, in lost productivity, unless that someone is a real loser. A company that randomly fires people is not going to do well, because of the disruption. I’d guess that more people walk off minimum wage jobs then get fired off them. When you start work at Intel, the first thing they tell you is the various offenses (including falling asleep) for which you can be fired. They actually have a standard procedure, but the culture is very much at-will employment - in your face at will employment. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/27 "2006-07-11T17:26:12Z")
[QUOTE=Corrvin] In any place that has employers and employees, there’s going to be a procedure for getting rid of an employee. [/QUOTE] Not necessarily. I think you’re forgetting all the small businesses that are, say, under ten employees, or even five and under. I helped run one, and fired an employee (who really deserved it, I assure you) by opening the door and saying, “Get out”. That was pretty much the procedure. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/28 "2006-07-11T17:34:12Z")
[QUOTE=Cardinal] Not necessarily. I think you’re forgetting all the small businesses that are, say, under ten employees, or even five and under. I helped run one, and fired an employee (who really deserved it, I assure you) by opening the door and saying, “Get out”. That was pretty much the procedure. [/QUOTE] Well, then that’s the procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/29 "2006-07-11T18:01:47Z")
But it was improvised. We’d never fired someone point-blank, and we had no policy handbook in any way. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/30 "2006-07-11T19:53:36Z")
I am firing someone tonight, at the end of her shift. Pennsylvania is an “at will” state, yet I spoke with my attorney in this situation. I (my office manager, actually) hired her three weeks ago. A week later, her previous employer called me (she is a friend) and filled me in on some things the employee had done while working for her. This led to my friend’s husband (an attorney) talking to some friends at the courthouse. Long-story-short: The woman had worked for a local bank 3 years ago. She stopped coming in for work with no notice. Coincidentally, her drawer was $1,000.00 short on the last day she worked. Although there was an investigation, she was not arrested! No way do I want to employ this person. My attorney advised I fire her without giving _any_ reason. Guess I’ll see how it goes. In the past, I have not fired anyone, although I have disliked people enough that they have ended their employment voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/31 "2006-07-11T20:02:15Z")
[QUOTE=galen] Unless you try to organize a union. Then you’d _better_ keep your nose squeaky clean or you will be fired on \*any \* pretext. The statistics are that one person is fired for every twenty organized. Tens of thousands of people are fired in the US each year for union activity. Most of the time, the bosses get away with it. [/QUOTE] That implies, by your own math, that unions are growing at the minimal rate of 200,000 people yearly. Is that so? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/32 "2006-07-11T20:22:25Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Those sort of barriers tend to reduce the number of persons who are simply hurled out into the street because they wore the wrong colored socks to work one morning. . [/QUOTE] Then, too, it costs a good deal of money to recruit an employee and train him/her up to the point where they are effective in the intended role; I think this tends to limit firings for one mistake when the worker is otherwise competent and satisfactory. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/33 "2006-07-11T20:23:06Z")
[QUOTE=Beadalin] Yes. I am good at my job. What’s more, I can pretty much count on my colleagues to be good at theirs, because they are still employed. The at-will employment laws allow incompetent people to be fired, which frees up employment for competent people. Anyone who’s been stuck working with an incompetent jackass knows what a relief it is to see that person let go, or to seek employment elsewhere themselves. [/QUOTE] I think this is a rather too simplistic view of people in the work situation and assumes that those with the hiring and firing power have excellent EQ skills - which is patently not the case. I also work with competent people - a few incompetent, but they have the gift of the gap or are excellent at sucking up to the right people - they wouldn’t be fired even if it was that easy to do. It just means that recruitment needs to be very good. Not sure I understand this feeling of “freedom”. I can actually leave my job very easily - I can’t imagine anywhere where you can’t leave a job easily - I guess it’s how you define “easily”. On the other hand, I want the protection of a robust system for getting rid of staff - there are too many dickheads in positions of power for my liking. No, I wouldn’t want to work with a company that didn’t want me either but in a big company, you can enjoy your job and the people you work with but not necessarily those higher up. Also, who is to know when you are going to have the proverbial “restructure” and your role is eliminated. Gigi - I can’t imagine it is that “difficult” to hire someone you want in any country, if you are an appointing manager. Yes, there are certain procedures you have to follow, but you don’t have to do fancy paper work or write reports and you just stack a recruitment panel with people who will go along with you - happens all the time. As far as unions go - we have them to thank for good working conditions and minimum wages - something which the US service industry doesn’t enjoy. I think the tipping system has partly screwed up the US economy. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/34 "2006-07-11T21:20:49Z")
[QUOTE=MelCthefirst] Gigi - I can’t imagine it is that “difficult” to hire someone you want in any country, if you are an appointing manager. Yes, there are certain procedures you have to follow, but you don’t have to do fancy paper work or write reports and you just stack a recruitment panel with people who will go along with you - happens all the time. [/QUOTE] Not difficult as in it’s hard to do, difficult as in it changes the economic calculus. It turns the process into a much larger risk for the company because the person is more difficult to fire. You really cannot just meet someone, decide you like them, and hire them. You’ve really got to make sure they won’t prove to be a total fuck up through an extensive interview, testing, and hiring process. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/35 "2006-07-11T21:22:10Z")
[QUOTE=vetbridge] I am firing someone tonight, at the end of her shift. Pennsylvania is an “at will” state, yet I spoke with my attorney in this situation. I (my office manager, actually) hired her three weeks ago. A week later, her previous employer called me (she is a friend) and filled me in on some things the employee had done while working for her. This led to my friend’s husband (an attorney) talking to some friends at the courthouse. Long-story-short: The woman had worked for a local bank 3 years ago. She stopped coming in for work with no notice. Coincidentally, her drawer was $1,000.00 short on the last day she worked. Although there was an investigation, she was not arrested! No way do I want to employ this person. My attorney advised I fire her without giving _any_ reason. Guess I’ll see how it goes. In the past, I have not fired anyone, although I have disliked people enough that they have ended their employment voluntarily. [/QUOTE] Now, this raises a question. Did the Bank fire her “for cause”? If not, are you really going to fire someone based upon a rumor of a possible theft? Knowing dudes who work for Banks, “drawers” can be “off” that much quite a bit, and without an internal audit investigation (and checking those cameras), it could just be a math mistake. Or, it could have been the lead teller, knowing that the employee was on her last day helping herself, knowing that the out-the-door employee would be blamed. Since there are cameras and stuff, the fact there was no arrest would seem to indicate no evidence of guilt on her part. I know of a female who was a Transit cop- “on probation”. She filed a sexual harrassment report against her Sgt. Not only was she “let go” before her probation was up, her ex-Sgt made sure he utilized the “Good old boy network” to see she was never hired again, atlhough the Transit Dept didn’t “fire her for cause” or anything like that. In other words, she’s been blacklisted for life; un-officially. This sounds like what your “friends” are doing. Of course, the woman can be a theif, but it is unfair to label her as such through rumors and behind her back job reports, when in actuality the bank had no evidence against her. ---
**Author:** ![ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/36 "2006-07-11T21:35:46Z")
[QUOTE=MelCthefirst] Not sure I understand this feeling of “freedom”. I can actually leave my job very easily - I can’t imagine anywhere where you can’t leave a job easily - I guess it’s how you define “easily”. On the other hand, I want the protection of a robust system for getting rid of staff - there are too many dickheads in positions of power for my liking. No, I wouldn’t want to work with a company that didn’t want me either but in a big company, you can enjoy your job and the people you work with but not necessarily those higher up. Also, who is to know when you are going to have the proverbial “restructure” and your role is eliminated. [/QUOTE] Personally, I think there is a certain freedom that comes from choosing the type of place you work for, and having the option to work for a place that is very easily able to cut dead weight. As has been pointed out, large corporations tend to have voluntary policies that have the same net effect as legislation in other countries. I worked for a large financial institution where it was very difficult for someone to get fired, even if they were useless. It goes with the territory: big company, broad and restrictive policies. But on the other end of the spectrum, I’ve worked for small companies that have to stay focused, and these companies have been able to fire people for simply not being “good enough”. That is to say, they weren’t doing anything _wrong_ per se, except that their performance was simply below what we could get from other people, or from other coworkers. These companies are small, usually privately owned, and run at a somewhat hectic pace with very little in the way of defined policies. They are able to be very picky about who continues to work for them because the restrictions on letting people go are pretty light. My “freedom” (or should I say, percieved freedom) comes from wanting to be able to work for the second type of company, and being able to. The thing is, I don’t really know for sure how things would change with more restrictive laws, because I’ve never lived in a country that had them. But I have worked for individual companies with these kinds of restrictions on who could be fired, and I hated working in that environment. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/37 "2006-07-11T21:36:40Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Now, this raises a question. Did the Bank fire her “for cause”? [/QUOTE] Sorry if my post was unclear. The bank did not fire her, she just stopped coming to work. Zero notice. I would fire her even if the theft concern did not exist, due to my finding out that her last two jobs she quit without notice. I became aware of the allegation of theft from an attorney who heard it from a local assistant DA, which in my eyes is more than a rumor. Even if it were just a rumor, I would not be comfortable having her work for me. But she will be fired later tonight without cause. Shame, really because she is doing a great job! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/38 "2006-07-11T21:40:58Z")
[QUOTE=vetbridge] Sorry if my post was unclear. The bank did not fire her, she just stopped coming to work. Zero notice. I would fire her even if the theft concern did not exist, due to my finding out that her last two jobs she quit without notice. I became aware of the allegation of theft from an attorney who heard it from a local assistant DA, which in my eyes is more than a rumor. Even if it were just a rumor, I would not be comfortable having her work for me. But she will be fired later tonight without cause. Shame, really because she is doing a great job! [/QUOTE] Well, the 1st is OK, but I’d first ask her about what happened. What did she say on her resume about leaving those jobs. “You know how to tell when an attorney’s lying? His lips are moving.” 😛 I am sorry, but if there was solid evidence of theft, then either she’d have been fired “for cause” or at least an arrest made. Without either, it’s not fair to hold this against her. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/39 "2006-07-11T21:49:27Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Well, the 1st is OK, but I’d first ask her about what happened. What did she say on her resume about leaving those jobs. [/QUOTE] Bank job (no pun intended)- left to work closer to home. Restaurant job- per job application, she was going to continue working there until she knew she would be taking the job I was offering and was happy with it. We even worked her schedule here around her other schedule, while all along she wasn’t working there. As far as asking her any questions, my attorney says I should not. Just tell her hasta luego, and that’s that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964/40 "2006-07-11T21:52:35Z")
[QUOTE=vetbridge] Bank job (no pun intended)- left to work closer to home. Restaurant job- per job application, she was going to continue working there until she knew she would be taking the job I was offering and was happy with it. We even worked her schedule here around her other schedule, while all along she wasn’t working there. As far as asking her any questions, my attorney says I should not. Just tell her hasta luego, and that’s that. [/QUOTE] Fair, you’re now firing her (although you don’t have to say so) for lying on her application (in the case of the bank job). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-people-that-easy/363964.md?page=3)