# Firing Principals of underperforming schools is going to improve results. Is this magical thinking? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 11, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075 "2014-10-11T23:52:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/21 "2014-10-12T02:10:32Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Not so much magical thinking as an aspect of the much broader, ongoing campaign to denigrate and destroy the American Public School system so that education can be run as a for-profit business. That, and blame-shifting. Blaming the principle means we can _avoid_ blaming poverty, racism, crime and other _social_ problems. Firing the principle is a lot easier and cheaper than trying to solve _those_ problems after all. And it means we can avoid any solution smacking of the ultimate of evils: _socialism._ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/22 "2014-10-12T02:14:31Z")
Princip **al**. Can’t believe I did that. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/23 "2014-10-12T02:20:19Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > Kids underperform in lower SES districts for a lot of reasons, for example: > > - They may not be getting decent nutrition at home, especially breakfast > - They may be doing a lot more work at home than kids from wealthier families, whether it be caring for younger siblings, working at the family business, or actually bringing in income upon which the family is depending > - English may not be the primary language at home; in fact, their parents may not speak it at all > - Even if the parents do speak English, they may be undereducated and education may not be considered a priority > - They may not have a computer, or the internet, at home, both of which are enormously helpful for schoolwork > > …and that’s just off the top of my head, having had kids in public school in some pretty shitty districts. And those are all problems that don’t have anything to do with the kids being less intelligent, and also wouldn’t be solved by firing a principal. It can get much worse than the problems you’ve listed. Substandard living conditions (think 10 people living in a one bedroom apartment), abusive parents, violence in schools, drug addictions, and malnourishment are a few other things I can think of. It’s ludicrous to expect every teacher hired for $50,000 per year will be able to deal with this. For every Joe Escalante there are thousands of decent teachers in poor districts who cannot handle these problems. And it’s absolutely not their fault that they cannot solve gang violence in order to improve grades in their class. No Principal is going to change this. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/24 "2014-10-12T02:24:10Z")
Have any principals been fired in this way, or is this a forecast? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/25 "2014-10-12T02:31:49Z")
Never mind ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/26 "2014-10-12T03:04:53Z")
What do fired school administrators who lost their jobs over test scores typically do with the rest of their career? Are they considered academic pariahs and more or less forced to find another career or can they find another school or district and work their way up again? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/27 "2014-10-12T03:07:04Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Never mind ☹ Considering your background, I imagine you have a lot of insight on this issue - I’m curios about what you think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/28 "2014-10-12T04:44:03Z")
I dont think either high or low achievement levels on standardized tests are necessarily the fault of the principal. Alot depends upon the kids. Now there are other times when principals do need to be fired but that is over failure to work effectively with staff and being unsupportive when teachers need help. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/29 "2014-10-12T05:29:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And it means we can avoid any solution smacking of the ultimate of evils: _socialism._ You say that as if socialism would improve things. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/30 "2014-10-12T06:05:00Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Jaime Escalante, of “Stand and Deliver” fame, had entire classes of dirt-poor Hispanic high-school students from terrible parts of Los Angeles ACING the AP Calculus exam. Check the wiki. It takes work, but you can really change lives, even in high school, even in bad neighborhoods, even with the kids of illiterate immigrants. It can be done, he proved it. It takes work, yes, but it also takes _time_, something rarely afforded to teachers (and Principals), and[something not depicted in the movie:](http://reason.com/archives/2002/07/01/stand-and-deliver-revisited) > [@](#): > > _Stand and Deliver_ shows a group of poorly prepared, undisciplined young people who were initially struggling with fractions yet managed to move from basic math to calculus in just a year. The reality was far different. It took 10 years to bring Escalante’s program to peak success. He didn’t even teach his first calculus course until he had been at Garfield for several years. His basic math students from his early years were not the same students who later passed the A.P. calculus test. I recommend you read the entire _Reason_ article I quoted to get a better idea of the real story behind the movie. > [@get\_lives](#): > > Jaime Escalante wasn’t magical. He was a Bolivian immigrant who had very little teaching experience. Why not take your own advice and [check the wiki:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante) > [@](#): > > Escalante was born to two teachers of Aymara ancestry… He was proud of his Aymara heritage and as an adult would proudly proclaim “The Aymara knew math before the Greeks and Egyptians”… He taught mathematics and physics for 12 years in his mother country before immigrating to the USA. ---
**Author:** ![jsquire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jsquire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsquire)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/31 "2014-10-12T09:57:22Z")
Let’s continue this thought experiment about economic/social/academic background and scholastic success. How many well-off well-funded suburban schools have performed poorly as calculated by the various systems put in place by NCLB? (This may be intended as a rhetorical question, but there certainly is an answer out there somewhere.). If it’s reasonable to expect success from everyone, is it not equally reasonable to expect failure from everyone? ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/32 "2014-10-12T10:52:48Z")
> [@camille](#): > > It takes work, yes, but it also takes _time_, something rarely afforded to teachers (and Principals), and[something not depicted in the movie:](http://reason.com/archives/2002/07/01/stand-and-deliver-revisited) I recommend you read the entire _Reason_ article I quoted to get a better idea of the real story behind the movie. > > Why not take your own advice and [check the wiki:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante) I did read the article. I admit I missed the part where he taught in Bolivia. However, he was the originator of his method. Just because it took him 10 years to get there doesn’t mean it can’t be done faster, once the method is streamlined. Not that it matters, I’m just pointing out what’s at least possible. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/33 "2014-10-12T11:35:43Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > \ It’s ludicrous to expect every teacher hired for $50,000 per year will be able to deal with this. \ Just wondering where teachers are hired at $50K - my daughter is in her 7th year of teaching and I don’t think she’s even paid in the low $40s yet. Not that the money is her motivation - she’s a really good teacher (no, that’s not just from a bragging mother) and she really loves to teach, when she’s allowed to do so. She loses so much time every year due to crap - whether it’s disciplinary issues, apathetic parents, over-the-top helicopter parents, assemblies for non-academic rah-rah sessions that take away from teaching hours, and the “social experiment” stuff she has to do instead of her lesson plan. She had students who were all excited because Daddy was finally being released from jail. She had 10-y/o students missing school because they had to stay home and care for younger sibs. She had students who flat out didn’t do the work whose parents obviously didn’t see the point. How does a principal fix that? Oh yeah, and while dealing with all that crap, she still managed to teach her 5th graders enough science that they scored the highest in the county on their standardized test - even higher than the “best” school in the county. Her secret? She taught the material, she didn’t teach the test. Gee, perhaps that might be an answer? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/34 "2014-10-12T12:56:05Z")
Do principals have the authority to fire bad teachers? If not, I don’t see how fitting the principal is going to help. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/35 "2014-10-12T12:59:52Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > ☹ Considering your background, I imagine you have a lot of insight on this issue - I’m curios about what you think about it. I am still thinking! ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/36 "2014-10-12T13:36:32Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > Just wondering where teachers are hired at $50K - my daughter is in her 7th year of teaching and I don’t think she’s even paid in the low $40s yet. That’s the estimate I got when I was looking into becoming a teacher in NYC. Cite: [NYC Department of Education: Salary and Benefits.](http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm) ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/37 "2014-10-12T14:11:28Z")
2 of the 3 best teachers I had in school had trouble with the same administrator. Coincidence? No. His incompetence and pointless dickishness was renowned in our small school system. He should have been replaced. I feel a little bad saying that. He really liked me, and his son was a good friend. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/38 "2014-10-12T14:38:54Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > She taught the material, she didn’t teach the test. Gee, perhaps that might be an answer? Now that’s just crazy talk. Imagine the chaos and anarchy that would ensue if teachers actually taught the material they were supposed to teach. All kidding aside, this is exactly what needs to happen. And as a corollary, teachers need to teach, not load the kids down with hours of homework and expect them to teach themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/39 "2014-10-12T14:41:26Z")
With great responsibility should come great power. Principals shouldn’t be fired for the way their schools were run unless they had been given general authority over policy. If they set the policy and it failed, you might be able to justify replacing them. But if they’re just carrying out the policy set by other people (a school board, the parents, the government) then they shouldn’t be held personally responsible for whether or not it works. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075/40 "2014-10-12T15:20:09Z")
We can all agree that profit produces the best quality and abundance of products, but we are loathe as a society to apply that logic to education. I believe the charter school experiment should be expanded, and that, _when run in a non-corrupt fashion_, charter schools probably do perform better than your standard public school. At the least, cutting out the bureaucracy leaves more resources for actual teaching. What I don’t get is those who either completely believe the current system is fine (i.e. there are no bad teachers, just throw even more money into the system), and those who completely believe education should be privatized. Every child deserves a quality education; how to best achieve that is an ambition we must continue to follow regardless of ideological predisposition. All I know is, we spend much more than other countries are receiving less. Clearly, there is room for improvement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-principals-of-underperforming-schools-is-going-to-improve-results-is-this-magical-thinking/701075.md?page=3)