# Firing Upheld of middle school science teacher / former porn star **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410 "2013-01-16T18:48:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/201 "2013-01-18T22:15:45Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > These are the debates where I feel like the world has left me behind. Nah, you’re safe. It’s the fantasies of certain Dopers that have drifted off in space somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/202 "2013-01-18T22:25:17Z")
Yeah, when did this discussion about ass-cum degenerate into the exploitation of the working class? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/203 "2013-01-19T12:50:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, when did this discussion about ass-cum degenerate into the exploitation of the working class? Around the time the S&M aficionado joined in, strangely enough… ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/204 "2013-01-19T22:29:10Z")
Yeah, I haven’t read the entire thread, but presumably any debate that might have ensued has by now degenerated far beyond its original merits. In any case, I read about this story a few days ago and actually considered putting up a topic on here to discuss it. Glad to see that somebody else had the wherewithal to do that haha. My opinion? I’m not getting too into this, but I really think that the teacher’s termination here was complete bullshit. I guess that a lot of a person’s opinion on this matter will be skewed depending on his or her perceptions of porn; in that case, then, I’m probably a bit biased because I have far more respect for pornographers and individuals who work within that industry than most other people tend to have. I’m glad that pornography is seemingly becoming more acceptable in our society - or at least throughout certain parts of the country - but it always irritates me to see haphazard standards of moral inferiority imposed upon persons who have worked in porn. This woman had a brief stint in porn. Then she wanted to become a teacher. Big fucking deal, just let her teach. ---
**Author:** ![temp\_user](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@temp\_user](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/temp_user)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/205 "2013-01-19T23:33:07Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Are you really comparing acting in a movie to having sex with strangers on camera? Really? I am not saying what happened to her is particularly fair, but there is no reason to make such asinine comparisons. The reality is that decisions have consequences, and if you decide to blow people on film for money, there are gonna be some jobs you can’t get, and some people who are gonna judge you. That’s the reality of it, and whine about it after the fact as if any reasonably intelligent wouldn’t have foreseen it, is just stupid. I agree with the last part of your post - that is indeed the reality of it. However, the people who appear in porn movies are referred to as “performers”. Those people are hired and on camera to put on a show, and to act - in the sense of acting in a movie - there is a certain amount of attraction between the performers and enjoyment of the acts portrayed. I would put them in the same league as the performers in the “Jackass” movies or other daredevils or professional wrestlers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/206 "2013-01-20T00:23:24Z")
By the standards put forth in this thread, I daresay the _Two Girls, One Cup_ performers are effectively barred from all forms of employment for at least three reincarnations. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/207 "2013-01-20T04:41:22Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > As things stand, you sound like an ancient Roman, claiming that all slaves were slaves by choice, since they were given the option of dying versus slavery, and they “chose” slavery. I am not saying that at all, and I think you know that. I have no idea what point you are trying to make by bringing up “consensual” into the argument. You agree that she has no right to be a teacher. She has no right to have been hired by that district in the first place. That her employment was via a contract that she willingly entered - nobody told her to sign the contract or they’d shoot her in the head. What possible argument are you actually trying to make? She chose to act in porn. She later chose to pursue a teaching certificate. She chose to perform in porn while working in the teaching field. How much overlap between being a certified teacher with a job as a teacher and performing in porn is murky. She claims there was no overlap, production dates listed on the video suggest there was overlap. However, all of that was with a different district than the one she was working in when this all came up and that she was fired from and was suing. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/208 "2013-01-20T14:08:27Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > I guess that a lot of a person’s opinion on this matter will be skewed depending on his or her perceptions of porn; \*snip I disagree. My opinion on porn is irrelevant to whether or not she could be an effective role model and authority figure for 14 year olds who would be laughing and making jokes about her. Yes, we could paddle those 14 year olds until their asses all bleed, but you can’t change hearts and minds. Maybe some day in the future society will adopt an attitude that working in the porn industry is no different than being an accountant or a factory worker. Until then, her past career will cause a problem in the education system at this school. Since no fundamental right of hers is being violated, the best course of action is to replace her with someone who won’t cause such a distraction. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/209 "2013-01-20T14:27:27Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Yes, we could paddle those 14 year olds until their asses all bleed You realize that by suggesting this, you put any possible future teaching employment in jeopardy? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/210 "2013-01-20T14:59:16Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I disagree. My opinion on porn is irrelevant to whether or not she could be an effective role model and authority figure for 14 year olds who would be laughing and making jokes about her. > > Yes, we could paddle those 14 year olds until their asses all bleed, but you can’t change hearts and minds. Maybe some day in the future society will adopt an attitude that working in the porn industry is no different than being an accountant or a factory worker. Until then, her past career will cause a problem in the education system at this school. > > Since no fundamental right of hers is being violated, the best course of action is to replace her with someone who won’t cause such a distraction. Is it always all right to treat people like shit so long as no fundamental right of theirs is being violated? Talk about relaxed morality! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/211 "2013-01-20T15:16:22Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I am not saying that at all, and I think you know that. I am glad you are not saying that. I do not know why the Dope considers it so exceptional that as a practical matter, for most people it’s necessary to work at SOMETHING to have an income to live on, therefore work is not a consensual thing. Consensuality implies choice. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what point you are trying to make by bringing up “consensual” into the argument. You agree that she has no right to be a teacher. She has no right to have been hired by that district in the first place. That her employment was via a contract that she willingly entered - nobody told her to sign the contract or they’d shoot her in the head. What possible argument are you actually trying to make? I brought up consensuality because someone made the comparison between employment as a consensual choice and sexual activity as a consensual choice, saying that it was just as wrong to place legal requirements on employers as it was to place legal requirements on what lovers people can/should choose. I think eventually work will be a consensual choice (when we get past the economy of scarcity) but we are way far away from that now, just as we are way far away from not being bigoted toward sex workers, which is the essential issue that fuels this debate. > [@](#): > > She chose to act in porn. She later chose to pursue a teaching certificate. She chose to perform in porn while working in the teaching field. How much overlap between being a certified teacher with a job as a teacher and performing in porn is murky. She claims there was no overlap, production dates listed on the video suggest there was overlap. However, all of that was with a different district than the one she was working in when this all came up and that she was fired from and was suing. As 2many tacos said, “This woman had a brief stint in porn. Then she wanted to become a teacher. Big fucking deal, just let her teach.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/212 "2013-01-20T15:28:18Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > A transaction does not fail to be consensual just because one can envision a fantastical paradise where the transaction would be unnecessary. When I buy a car, the transaction is not coercive because I can imagine a world where I get the Hyundai _ **and** _ keep my twenty thousand dollars! A transaction DOES fail to be consensual when there is no element of choice, period. What is so fantastical about the notion that, for most people, it is necessary to work to have an income? > [@](#): > > Your description of consent is beyond fatuous. You do not seem to be able to post without including insulting terms in your post at some point. A shame, you sometimes make good points. > [@](#): > > The very fact that a transaction is taking place _ **presupposes** _ that the world is such that the parties don’t have everything that they need and want. So obviously it can be no argument to the consensual nature of the transaction to point out, well, if the parties already had those things, they wouldn’t participate in the transaction. No shit. You define choice so loosely that the term loses all meaning. Would you also say, "The very fact that a man is horny enough to make a move on a woman PRESUPPOSES that the workd is such that both parties don’t have everything they need and want, so OBVIOUSLY consensuality is a moot point? > [@](#): > > Coercion consists in the application of unpleasant consequences over and above those that naturally result from the chosen action. It is coercion when I tell you “Pay me ten thousand dollars, or I’ll burn your store down.” It is not coercion when I say “Stock the stuff I want to buy (or stop appearing in movies I don’t approve of), or I’m going to shop somewhere else.” I believe many libertarians and conservatives say, “if you want to eat, work.” How is the spectacle of starvation and homelessness not an unpleasant consequence? I see a man straining to make differences that make no difference. > [@](#): > > I don’t think you dispute any of this, but rather have a deeply misguided notion that your sophistry might actually be bamboozling any of the rest of us. You are wrong. I honestly disagree with you on these points. ---
**Author:** ![temp\_user](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@temp\_user](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/temp_user)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/213 "2013-01-21T14:26:17Z")
Would her porn past preclude her from any teaching career? Could she teach adults at a communtiy college if properly accredited, or is her entire teaching career completely dashed? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/214 "2013-01-21T15:05:35Z")
In the Time Before Everyone Was Online, someone could have been a porn performer some time in the past and leave little trace of it but some mouldering old magazine pages or film loops that would not be readily available on every student’s phone or tablet at an instant’s notice. Nowadays though the class disruption is imminent all the time. Fair? No, but a real consideration. > [@temp\_user](#): > > Would her porn past preclude her from any teaching career? Could she teach adults at a communtiy college if properly accredited, or is her entire teaching career completely dashed? A better chance for her - the problem here would be the issue as to whether she was misleading in informing about the overlap of activities. Strictly on the past-porn aspect I believe that the Community College management could tell the students: “Hey, you’re legal adults. Behave like it or hit the road.” There would be no indignant _parents_ or Think-Of-The-Children-ers involved, or if they were, the management could say: “Hey, these young people are legal adults. Their call, not yours.” ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/215 "2013-01-21T15:16:22Z")
> [@temp\_user](#): > > Would her porn past preclude her from any teaching career? Could she teach adults at a communtiy college if properly accredited, or is her entire teaching career completely dashed? If she wants a teaching job at a college she should probably be spending her youth as a domestic terrorist or at least a general anti-establishment trouble maker. She needs to get arrested at a couple of protests and have an FBI file. Pretending to be a Native American is helpful. Is she white? That will really hurt her. Drinking someone’s cum from her own ass will probably be a good entry point into women’s studies or something. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/216 "2013-01-21T17:24:49Z")
I thought it was a _requirement_ at Bryn Mawr. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/217 "2013-01-21T18:22:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I thought it was a _requirement_ at Bryn Mawr. I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/218 "2013-01-21T18:31:25Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I don’t get it. I believe that Bryan intended to humorously juxtapose the stiff, formal, earnestly feminist image of Bryn Mawr with the considerably less formal activities engaged in by the former teacher, by claiming that such activities are in fact a requirement at Bryn Mawr. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/219 "2013-01-21T18:38:45Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Is it always all right to treat people like shit so long as no fundamental right of theirs is being violated? Talk about relaxed morality! I don’t think this is a matter of treating her like shit. The term implies that the board is guided by animus and hatred towards the woman. I don’t think (and I assume the board doesn’t think) that this lady is a bad person because she chose to engage in porn. I can’t say why she did that, nor can anyone else, and I don’t think that personal feelings regarding the morality of pornography is pertinent at all. To protect the school, the students, and the process from mockery is an important reason to let someone go. The porn angle is a red herring. I would support the firing for other reasons that disrupt the educational process. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/220 "2013-01-21T20:16:11Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > To protect the school, the students, and the process from mockery is an important reason to let someone go. The porn angle is a red herring. I would support the firing for other reasons that disrupt the educational process. So, the guidance counselor in my high school who was considered by the students to be a feather brained idiot and was constantly being mocked behind his back should be terminated? My foreign born social science teacher who was repeatedly mocked by students for his accent should worry that this lack of respect could cause an end to his career? Are we not better off in the long run enforcing discipline toward students and teaching them that, even if they lack true respect for someone, there are times where you must maintain the appearance of respect? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410.md?page=12)