# Firing Upheld of middle school science teacher / former porn star **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410 "2013-01-16T18:48:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/221 "2013-01-21T20:35:34Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Are we not better off in the long run enforcing discipline toward students and teaching them that, even if they lack true respect for someone, there are times where you must maintain the appearance of respect? Hmm. To get by in life, these kids have to learn to fake it, and you think having a porn actress as a teacher will help. Can’t really argue that… ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/222 "2013-01-21T20:37:57Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I do not know why the Dope considers it so exceptional that as a practical matter, for most people it’s necessary to work at SOMETHING to have an income to live on, therefore work is not a consensual thing. Consensuality implies choice. You are taking something that no one seems to disagree with (that most people in modern society need to earn a living in some way) and stretching it for some inexplicable reason to make no sense. Just because a person needs a job in order to live doesn’t mean they are entitled to any specific job or to any job field. Hiring is done under contract law, and is a consensual arrangement in that both parties agree to the job arrangement. Part of that job arrangement is having specific qualifications and situational conditions. > [@](#): > > I brought up consensuality because someone made the comparison between employment as a consensual choice and sexual activity as a consensual choice, saying that it was just as wrong to place legal requirements on employers as it was to place legal requirements on what lovers people can/should choose. There are plenty of legal requirements on employers that are not on choosing sexual partners. For example, employers are required to verify their potential employees are legally in this country and eligible to work. You are not required to verify your potential sex partner is legally in this country and eligible to work. Justifying that employers should have some new regulation on them does not require your strange argument over consensuality. > [@](#): > > I think eventually work will be a consensual choice (when we get past the economy of scarcity) but we are way far away from that now, just as we are way far away from not being bigoted toward sex workers, which is the essential issue that fuels this debate. Is our society bigoted against sex workers? Certainly. There’s a strong judgement against sex workers based on societal expectations about sex. None of which is relevant to the fact that employment is a contract that is reached by mutual consent. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > You define choice so loosely that the term loses all meaning. Would you also say, "The very fact that a man is horny enough to make a move on a woman PRESUPPOSES that the workd is such that both parties don’t have everything they need and want, so OBVIOUSLY consensuality is a moot point? Completely distorted. A horny man doesn’t have what he needs and wants, so he is able to negotiate for it. An unemployed woman doesn’t have what she needs and wants, so she is able to negotiate for it. In neither case is the result assured that the seeker will obtain what they need in any specific negotiation. > [@](#): > > How is the spectacle of starvation and homelessness not an unpleasant consequence? It is an unpleasant consequence, but it is a consequence that “naturally results from the chosen action”, not one imposed by a third party. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/223 "2013-01-21T21:19:07Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Are we not better off in the long run enforcing discipline toward students and teaching them that, even if they lack true respect for someone, there are times where you must maintain the appearance of respect? Sometimes. Absolutely. But surely there has to be a limit to tolerance even if we might draw it at different places. If the guidance counselor was a dweeb, then the students must at least act like they respect him. A foreign accent must be dealt with by education and punishment if necessary. A porn star for a teacher? That’s different.. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/224 "2013-01-21T22:31:35Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Sometimes. Absolutely. But surely there has to be a limit to tolerance even if we might draw it at different places. > > If the guidance counselor was a dweeb, then the students must at least act like they respect him. A foreign accent must be dealt with by education and punishment if necessary. > > A porn star for a teacher? That’s different.. I don’t disagree but I am troubled by not having a clear understanding of how to draw the line and on what basis. If a female teacher had been seen leaving an adult toy store with a bag of bondage equipment and a large dildo and someone snapped a photo and distributed to other kids who all snickered now every time they saw her, disrupting her ability to teach, should that teacher be fired by the standard of her ability to teach being disrupted? If a teacher lied about something in her private life that she felt was no business of the school board - her multiple current female lovers for example - should she be fired for lying? “Moral turpitude” is such a squishy standard. To define it as something that would disgust or at least distract even _me_ seems an inadequate approach. Legal is not my question. BTW **epbrown01** … well done. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/225 "2013-01-21T23:38:10Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Sometimes. Absolutely. But surely there has to be a limit to tolerance even if we might draw it at different places. > > If the guidance counselor was a dweeb, then the students must at least act like they respect him. A foreign accent must be dealt with by education and punishment if necessary. > > A porn star for a teacher? That’s different.. What if the teacher had been a foul-mouthed insult comic, and there were dozens or hundreds of videos online of the teacher performing her act? Surely that’s a distraction, right? Would the firing of the teacher be warranted? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/226 "2013-01-21T23:52:12Z")
Here’s what I want to know: The portion of the article quoted in the OP mentions ‘abuse’. What specific abuse is alleged to have taken place? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/227 "2013-01-22T00:21:29Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Sometimes. Absolutely. But surely there has to be a limit to tolerance even if we might draw it at different places. > > If the guidance counselor was a dweeb, then the students must at least act like they respect him. A foreign accent must be dealt with by education and punishment if necessary. > > A porn star for a teacher? That’s different.. But why is it different? I can completely understand if the teacher was talking up her videos in class or being otherwise inappropriate but if she is just trying to teach why can’t we just tell little Johnny to STFU in class and pretend to respect her as we would in the case of a foreign accent or a slightly scatterbrained teacher? What if it had been her identical twin sister doing the videos and everyone thought it was her. Would we still be ok firing her? All of the same issues with mockery and such exist but I’m sure a far larger portion of the population would be willing to tell everyone involved to grow the hell up and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/228 "2013-01-22T00:26:34Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > “Moral turpitude” is such a squishy standard. To define it as something that would disgust or at least distract even _me_ seems an inadequate approach. An the law is being convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude so being a prostitute would not be grounds for termination but being convicted for prostitution would be. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/229 "2013-01-22T04:15:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If the guidance counselor was a dweeb, then the students must at least act like they respect him. A foreign accent must be dealt with by education and punishment if necessary. > > A porn star for a teacher? That’s different.. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/230 "2013-01-22T04:42:10Z")
Asking directly won’t help. Engaging in mockery is at least entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/231 "2013-01-22T05:07:28Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Here’s what I want to know: The portion of the article quoted in the OP mentions ‘abuse’. What specific abuse is alleged to have taken place? The “abuse” is dialogue from her porn movie where she claims to be a teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/232 "2013-01-22T05:21:38Z")
> [@Robb](#): > > The “abuse” is dialogue from her porn movie where she claims to be a teacher. Oh. Not very clear from the article. Also didn’t help that the Huffington Post piece I found about her later had a gallery of teachers who _did_ sexually abuse their students at the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/233 "2013-01-22T05:35:14Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Oh. Not very clear from the article. Also didn’t help that the Huffington Post piece I found about her later had a gallery of teachers who _did_ sexually abuse their students at the end of it. I agree it is a fuzzy story. I might have been fuzzy earlier. If anyone wants to read the opinion that upheld her firing, it can be found [here](http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/120680877?access_key=key-zonxon7wrcfmqzhkg65). ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Oak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dbc845/32.png) [@Gary\_Oak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Oak)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/234 "2013-01-22T11:08:44Z")
That is bullshit to the extreme… if is was an murder i could understand, but a porn star, give me a fucking break, that school should lose its funding till its fixes its problem ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/235 "2013-01-22T14:52:29Z")
> [@Gary\_Oak](#): > > That is bullshit to the extreme… if is was an murder i could understand, but a porn star, give me a fucking break, that school should lose its funding till its fixes its problem Absolutely disagree. Say hi to your grandfather for me, though. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/236 "2013-01-22T16:35:17Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > But why is it different? I can completely understand if the teacher was talking up her videos in class or being otherwise inappropriate but if she is just trying to teach why can’t we just tell little Johnny to STFU in class and pretend to respect her as we would in the case of a foreign accent or a slightly scatterbrained teacher? > What if it had been her identical twin sister doing the videos and everyone thought it was her. Would we still be ok firing her? All of the same issues with mockery and such exist but I’m sure a far larger portion of the population would be willing to tell everyone involved to grow the hell up and learn. What do we need to learn? Do I really need to explain the difference between a teacher who is a bit of a dweeb and one that you have a video of drinking come that has recently been expelled from her asshole? I guess it’s one of those “know it when you see it” things that makes the difference for me. Perhaps I need to be more progressive and somehow “understand” that such a thing should not be an issue in a school environment. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/237 "2013-01-22T17:35:36Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Here’s what I want to know: The portion of the article quoted in the OP mentions ‘abuse’. What specific abuse is alleged to have taken place? It appears that the abuse quote is apparently the guy on the video referring to a different incident where a student’s parents reported the boy having sex with his teacher. It does not refer to anything that Stacie Halas said or did. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/238 "2013-01-23T00:19:03Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What do we need to learn? Do I really need to explain the difference between a teacher who is a bit of a dweeb and one that you have a video of drinking come that has recently been expelled from her asshole? > > I guess it’s one of those “know it when you see it” things that makes the difference for me. Perhaps I need to be more progressive and somehow “understand” that such a thing should not be an issue in a school environment. If you are pinning your argument on the prevention of mockery toward the school and the process then yes, you do need to explain why engaging in one legal act should be treated differently than engaging in another when we are deciding when we should punish the mockery or the mocked. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/239 "2013-01-23T00:58:17Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What do we need to learn? Do I really need to explain the difference between a teacher who is a bit of a dweeb and one that you have a video of drinking come that has recently been expelled from her asshole? I think you need to explain why it should be different from the perspective of maintaining discipline in a classroom. If the kids are making fun of Mr. Chandrashaker’s accent and it’s disrupting class, you crack down on the kids until they stop being disruptive. If the kids are making fun of Mrs. Smith for starring in “Cum Guzzler’s Odyssey VI” and it’s disrupting class, why can’t you crack down on them in the same way you would for the teacher with an accent? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/240 "2013-01-23T07:38:11Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Sometimes. Absolutely. But surely there has to be a limit to tolerance even if we might draw it at different places. > > If the guidance counselor was a dweeb, then the students must at least act like they respect him. A foreign accent must be dealt with by education and punishment if necessary. > > A porn star for a teacher? That’s different.. I disagree. Your argument seems reasonable to you because you think sex workers are not equal to others and deserve to be treated badly. Basically, you’re like a medieval peasant shouting, “Burn her! She’s a witch!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410.md?page=13)