# Firing Upheld of middle school science teacher / former porn star **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410 "2013-01-16T18:48:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/161 "2013-01-18T06:24:58Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Are you really comparing acting in a movie to having sex with strangers on camera? Really? Yes, I really am doing that. Marisa Tomei knelt naked on a bed with her legs spread in front of a camera crew while Hoffman knelt between her legs and pretended to hump her. How is that different from what our teacher did? Sure, she did actual humping and it was explicit, but why is one worth firing and one just fine? Explain it to me if you will. > [@](#): > > I am not saying what happened to her is particularly fair, but there is no reason to make such asinine comparisons. I thought I was making a serious point. If you have nothing better than name calling, pick up your marbles and go home. > [@](#): > > The reality is that decisions have consequences, and if you decide to blow people on film for money, there are gonna be some jobs you can’t get, and some people who are gonna judge you. That’s the reality of it, and whine about it after the fact as if any reasonably intelligent wouldn’t have foreseen it, is just stupid. I disagree. I think that it should not make a difference. Almost everyone has sex without a camera recording it, why should that make a huge difference? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/162 "2013-01-18T06:30:47Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I see, so she was getting her Harriet Beecher Stowe on during this porno interview? But a Harriet Beecher Stowe who was also a slave? But a slave Harriet Beecher Stowe who didn’t write a narrative about the horrors of slavery but instead wrote “LOL! Masser would be so pissed if he knew I were writing this novel. J/k!!” A slave Harriet Beecher Stowe who also told her master that she was not a slave? (Wait, what? Maybe she turns into Sojourner Truth at this point? Or a tiger? Sure, I’ll go with it.) > > Yes, it is abundantly clear now: I don’t know how I overlooked these brazenly obvious parallels. I am sorry, I guess I was not clear. In my analogy, I am Harriett Beecher Stowe, you are the equivalent of a Southern slaveholder, that is, a person doing something morally wrong, and I am in your face about it even though I am not myself a porn performer. I feel that you are perpetrating an offense against morality, and am informing you of it. The particular offense is judging sex workers as morally unfit, simply because they are sex workers. Ths is wrong, you should stop it. It’s like judging people morally on the basis of skin color. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/163 "2013-01-18T06:33:42Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Have you seen porn? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/164 "2013-01-18T06:38:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > With as much deference as I am able to muster for the implicit idea that all sexual acts are morally neutral and of identical lewdness to writing words that describe sexual acts…in one video, according to the testimony at the hearing, Ms. Halas’ partners ejaculated in her rectum, she squeezed the ejaculate out of her anus into a shot glass, and drank the contents of the shot glass. > > If she was fired for a body of work including that act, I cannot regard it as on par with kids writing something lewd on Facebook. So to the extent that your speculation seeks to draw some parallel between the two…I am not persuaded. Gay men do stuff that squicks me as much as what you describe. Should they all be fired from their jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/165 "2013-01-18T06:40:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Personally, I’m still inclined to ask why “us” thought it necessary to inquire. Was there some indication she was showing porn in class? Telling students about porn? Inviting students to participate in porn? It turns out if you actually do “think of the children!”, the children aren’t actually involved at all. What? The place was in an uproar. The kids knew about it. Some were upset. Others thought it was hilarious. None of them were getting taught anything. It would have been incomprehensible for administrators not to look into it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/166 "2013-01-18T06:54:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My mistake. > > Can you clarify this statement, then? > > Her lies matter because they were wrong in and of themselves and merited dismissal regardless of her movie career. Her lies were clearly made under a form of duress: she knew that if she told the truth about her porn career she would not get a teaching job. It was wrong of them to deny her a teaching job because of her porn career. It was no more morally wrong of her to deny her porn career than it was for people who were legally black to attempt to “pass” as white in slavery and Jim Crow days. When the society’s rules are morally wrong, evading them is morally right. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/167 "2013-01-18T07:04:30Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > You agree that the essence of a **consensual** arrangement between two parties is their free, unforced, and voluntary agreement to enter into the arrangement. Why should it matter whether you or I think a party’s willingness (or unwillingness) to enter into a given consensual arrangement is justified? > > Why don’t you just admit it: You think choice of sexual activities should be maximally free within the boundaries of consent. So a person is free to have sex with someone and free to refrain from having sex with someone and free to end a sexual relationship. All without solicit the input of uninvolved others. > > But when it comes to hiring and firing activities, employers should be less free and should have to justify their decisions to third parties. > > What’s your rationale for the differing treatment? There is no consensuality to employment. You have to work to have a place to live, food to eat, clothes to wear. There’s the rationale … it’s not a consensual situation. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/168 "2013-01-18T07:36:36Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What? The place was in an uproar. The kids knew about it. Some were upset. Others thought it was hilarious. None of them were getting taught anything. It would have been incomprehensible for administrators not to look into it. What exactly is the timeline in this case? Did a kid discover the porn connection and alert the others, the news eventually reaching the school officials? If so, I blame the parents for insufficiently covering their children’s eyes to the existence of porn. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/169 "2013-01-18T08:54:34Z")
These are the debates where I feel like the world has left me behind. Whether this lady is right or wrong for making porn films is irrelevant. Her presence in a school environment as an authority figure is horribly compromised when her students can watch films of her involved in a gang bang and swallowing come. To me it’s clear that she doesn’t belong in a teaching position. Right or wrong, we all make choices in life that affect our career opportunities down the road. The parents and administrators of the school district should not be forced to carry her baggage. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/170 "2013-01-18T09:06:24Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > These are the debates where I feel like the world has left me behind. Whether this lady is right or wrong for making porn films is irrelevant. Her presence in a school environment as an authority figure is horribly compromised when her students can watch films of her involved in a gang bang and swallowing come. Well, maybe you’re just the equivalent of a school administrator in the 1920s who sincerely believes that a teacher’s presence in a school environment as an authority figure is horribly compromised if she is married. Possibly 50 years from now, someone will sincerely believe that a teacher’s presence in a school environment as an authority figure is horribly compromised by her not shaving her pubic hair. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/171 "2013-01-18T09:16:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > There is no consensuality to employment. You have to work to have a place to live, food to eat, clothes to wear. There’s the rationale … it’s not a consensual situation. Your position then is: our dependence on having a job to secure life’s necessities does not mean we need to conform our behavior to our jobs’ demands, but rather our employers must conform their expectations to our desires. In other words, the world owes us a living, and we do not owe anything back. Nice try, hippie. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/172 "2013-01-18T09:24:40Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Nice try, hippie. Yeah, that’ll go on his permanent record. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/173 "2013-01-18T13:20:41Z")
Was there really an uproar? The linked story in the OP only mentioned that a profanity had been written on a classroom window, hardly an uproar. The proponents of termination are still talking about her being unable to teach effectively, which remains conjecture. If she couldn’t teach effectively, I would also favor termination, but firing her before that actually happens is where my beef with this situation lies. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/174 "2013-01-18T14:39:47Z")
I’m kinda curious what happens if the kids _think_ she’s a porn star, i.e. there’s a persistent rumour helped along by childhood fantasies, or there’s a porn actress who happens to greatly resemble the teacher. Would she be just as “compromised”? Further, if it was possible for the investigation to have gone along the lines of: “Are you a former porn actress?” “Yep.” “Just checking. Carry on.” i.e. what if she’d never lied at all? Would she still be working as a teacher? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/175 "2013-01-18T14:50:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > i.e. what if she’d never lied at all? Would she still be working as a teacher? I guess it would depend on whether it compromised her ability to teach (in other words, whether the students found out). Personally, I would not think there was any justification for firing somebody due to a previous career choice. The fact that this chick had an _ongoing_ porn career makes the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/176 "2013-01-18T15:14:08Z")
Was it ongoing? I was under the impression (maintained in large part by not bothering to independently research any details whatsoever) that while her porn and teaching careers had overlapped, the former had been over for some time. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/177 "2013-01-18T15:44:46Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Yes, I really am doing that. Marisa Tomei knelt naked on a bed with her legs spread in front of a camera crew while Hoffman knelt between her legs and pretended to hump her. How is that different from what our teacher did? Sure, she did actual humping and it was explicit, but why is one worth firing and one just fine? Explain it to me if you will. 1. When Marisa Tomei went to get her next job, she listed her film credit with no hesitation or deceit. 2. Every day (more or less) each one of us sits on a toilet and evacuates our bowels, but we would fire a teacher that did so in public. Why? Because we, as a society, have crafted certain standards of behavior. You, personally, may feel that these standards are misplaced. Who cares what you think? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/178 "2013-01-18T15:47:10Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > There is no consensuality to employment. You have to work to have a place to live, food to eat, clothes to wear. There’s the rationale … it’s not a consensual situation. Again, that’s your peculiar view. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/179 "2013-01-18T15:48:49Z")
So could Tomei be a middle-school science teacher if she wanted (and took the necessary training), or is she hopelessly “compromised”? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410/180 "2013-01-18T15:54:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 1. When Marisa Tomei went to get her next job, she listed her film credit with no hesitation or deceit. > > 2. Every day (more or less) each one of us sits on a toilet and evacuates our bowels, but we would fire a teacher that did so in public. Why? Because we, as a society, have crafted certain standards of behavior. You, personally, may feel that these standards are misplaced. Who cares what you think? The question, in a free society, is how much power you are willing to cede to the government to enforce your particular view of the world. I don’t know what kind of morality clause the government put in this teacher’s contract, nor do I necessarily believe they had a right to put one in at all. Absent violating the terms of her employment contact, however, let her teach the damn class. If the students are disruptive, discipline them until they come around. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-upheld-of-middle-school-science-teacher-former-porn-star/647410.md?page=10)