# Firing US Attorneys - What crime was committed? \[Note: thread is from 2007\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 22, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072 "2007-03-22T20:38:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eliphalet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eliphalet/32/9563_2.png) [@Eliphalet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eliphalet)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/1 "2007-03-22T20:38:48Z")
I’ve been reading a lot on the 8 US Attorneys being fired, and the mess that Alberto Gonzales and George W. Bush have landed in. I know that there are several GD going on, but I wanted to post a very specific question. Say that Gonzales, Meier, and Rove did plot to remove these 8 people from office, for political gain. What crime did they commit? Bush has the right to remove them at his whim, even though prior presidents didn’t do it that way. What law was broken? Eli ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/2 "2007-03-22T20:51:03Z")
[QUOTE=Eliphalet] I’ve been reading a lot on the 8 US Attorneys being fired, and the mess that Alberto Gonzales and George W. Bush have landed in. I know that there are several GD going on, but I wanted to post a very specific question. Say that Gonzales, Meier, and Rove did plot to remove these 8 people from office, for political gain. What crime did they commit? Bush has the right to remove them at his whim, even though prior presidents didn’t do it that way. What law was broken? Eli [/QUOTE] The Tenure of Office Act 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/3 "2007-03-22T21:02:05Z")
I’m not at all sure that a law was violated. The investigation is more the _motive_ for the firings, particularly the charges that some attorneys were fired for prosecuting too many Republicans or not enough Democrats. [Wiki Article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_of_U.S._attorneys_controversy) If it were to be found that this is true then Bush/Miers/Gonzales may be in trouble on an ethics violation for using the Judiciary for personal vendetta, though I’m still not sure that’s illegal. It’s a very complicated issue for those of us (like me) who have no background in Federal law. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/4 "2007-03-22T21:02:56Z")
[QUOTE=SaintCad] The Tenure of Office Act 😉 [/QUOTE] Har har har. Seriously, though, I don’t think anyone’s been accused of a crime, just severe impropriety. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/5 "2007-03-22T21:08:16Z")
There must be a dozen threads elsewhere on this, but from what I understand no law was broken by firing the attorneys. OTOH, no one has made the claim that any laws were broken by that action. It is possible that laws were broken after the fact, in the form of untruthful statements under oath but even that is not yet a major issue. The issue is solely one of politics. Because of that, any further discussion of this topic belongs in another forum. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/6 "2007-03-22T21:18:14Z")
Also, Bush’s ridiculous “no oath, no transcript, no cameras” proposal was basically the same as screaming FIRE! COME QUICK! FIRE! that made Congress all the more positive he has something to hide. Had he not done that I seriously doubt a scandal this complex and with no dead bodies would be front page news for more than a week but now it’s going to be there until Anna Nicole’s autopsy is released. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/7 "2007-03-22T21:38:08Z")
IANAL, but if it could be shown at an attorney was fired to halt an investigation, wouldn’t that be a crime? Nothing like that has been shown, and the strongest evidence is the calls to Iglesias which were about speeding up a prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/8 "2007-03-22T22:24:07Z")
The NYT had a recent op-ed concerning [which laws may have been broken](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/19/opinion/19mon4.html?_r=2&th&emc=th&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) in the U.S. Attorney firings. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/9 "2007-03-23T01:15:18Z")
[QUOTE=Eliphalet] Bush has the right to remove them at his whim, even though prior presidents didn’t do it that way. What law was broken? Eli [/QUOTE] Actually, they did. Both Reagan and Clinton fired all 93 attorneys when they took office. The difference is, they did it at the beginning of the presidency, not many years later. The objection to the Bush firing is that they were fired for supposedly pursuing prosecutions of Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/10 "2007-03-23T02:21:18Z")
Reagan and Clinton fired prosecutors also, but it was a totally different situation, and comparing them is just disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/11 "2007-03-23T02:32:21Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot] Reagan and Clinton fired prosecutors also, but it was a totally different situation, and comparing them is just disingenuous. [/QUOTE] I’m not comparing anything, just responding to another poster’s possibly erroneous assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/12 "2007-03-23T12:00:40Z")
I asked a similar question a week or so ago. There have been allegations that the Bush Administration is trying to twart investigations, but frankly I’m still waiting for anyone to make a convincing case that any crime was committed. ---
**Author:** ![muttrox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a8b319/32.png) [@muttrox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muttrox)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/13 "2007-03-23T14:15:30Z")
The link to the NYT has a good list of crimes that may have been committed. Doesn’t that address the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/14 "2007-03-23T16:35:53Z")
[QUOTE=muttrox] The link to the NYT has a good list of crimes that may have been committed. Doesn’t that address the OP? [/QUOTE] Those are basically just a theoretical exercise. To date, I don’t think anyone has made any serious allegations of criminal activity. (And remember, they’d have to prove any such claims.) It seems like, to date, they’re only alleging unethical behavior on Gonzales’ part. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/15 "2007-03-23T16:56:46Z")
[QUOTE=muttrox] The link to the NYT has a good list of crimes that may have been committed. Doesn’t that address the OP? [/QUOTE] No. First, as **Diceman** wrote, those answers are simply examples of what lawyers can pull out of their ass, er, heads if they want to make a case. Nobody in the real world would charge high-profile white house officials on those tenuous claims. Second, the OP asked about what the crimes were in firing the attorneys. The op-ed writer’s number two and three are about actions taken by congressional personnel, so they have nothing to do with the White House or the firing. His one concerns false statements made after the fact, but has nothing to do with the firing. Only his fourth example is pertinent, and nobody has yet made any claim that it fits the facts of the case. It is a mere hypothetical. As the facts stand today, no crimes were committed in the firing of the attorneys. We may discover facts not yet public that would constitute a crime but until then that op-ed piece would have been better published in GD, where it could have been picked apart properly. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/16 "2007-03-23T17:24:47Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] No. First, as **Diceman** wrote, those answers are simply examples of what lawyers can pull out of their ass, er, heads if they want to make a case. Nobody in the real world would charge high-profile white house officials on those tenuous claims. Second, the OP asked about what the crimes were in firing the attorneys. The op-ed writer’s number two and three are about actions taken by congressional personnel, so they have nothing to do with the White House or the firing. His one concerns false statements made after the fact, but has nothing to do with the firing. Only his fourth example is pertinent, and nobody has yet made any claim that it fits the facts of the case. It is a mere hypothetical. As the facts stand today, no crimes were committed in the firing of the attorneys. We may discover facts not yet public that would constitute a crime but until then that op-ed piece would have been better published in GD, where it could have been picked apart properly. [/QUOTE] Which is why they’re **investigating** by attempting to **question** certain key parties and not **prosecuting** anyone yet. The answer to the OP is we don’t know. The NYT link provides some possibilties. Is it illegal to take your boat deep sea fishing all by yourself? No. But if done the day after your spouse turns up missing , it certainly might raise some suspicions. The firings and related emails appear to be smoke and Congress is looking for a fire. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/17 "2007-03-23T17:26:51Z")
[QUOTE=Diceman] Those are basically just a theoretical exercise. To date, I don’t think anyone has made any serious allegations of criminal activity. (And remember, they’d have to prove any such claims.) It seems like, to date, they’re only alleging unethical behavior on Gonzales’ part. [/QUOTE] they’re investigating suspicious circumstances ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/18 "2007-03-24T00:05:19Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] No. First, as **Diceman** wrote, those answers are simply examples of what lawyers can pull out of their ass, er, heads if they want to make a case. Nobody in the real world would charge high-profile white house officials on those tenuous claims. [/QUOTE] While my following quote doesn’t fit the bill as far as “high-profile white house officials” goes, I think it shows that there is precedent for what Adam Cohen wrote in that op-ed piece. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (AP) - Former Deputy Interior Secretary J. Steven Griles on Friday became the highest-ranking Bush administration official convicted in the Jack Abramoff influence-peddling scandal, pleading guilty to obstructing justice by lying to a Senate committee. From [Latest news from around the world | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6503896,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/19 "2007-03-24T02:08:35Z")
Well, sure, lying to Congress is a crime. But the only example that op-ed could give was this: > [@](#): > > Attorney General Alberto Gonzales made his own dubious assertion to Congress: “I would never, ever make a change in a United States attorney position for political reasons.” When I said, “Nobody in the real world would charge high-profile white house officials on those tenuous claims.” I meant every word. If that’s all they have on Gonzales, then any action would turn Congress into a national laughingstock. As I keep saying, if they come up with facts not yet public, then anything could happen. But there’s nothing in that op-ed that says that. ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Clark\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_K)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072/20 "2007-03-25T22:45:32Z")
It’s a mistake to get hung up on whether or not a crime was committed, unless we as a nation are lowering our standards to the point that government officials can do anything they want so long as it’s not technically illegal. Even assuming the worst interpretation of the facts, I doubt any crime was committed. But I do think the whole thing was unethical and that the administration has lied about what happened. If that is what happened, then Gonzales and Rove should have the decency to step down, or Bush should have the integrity to fire them. I’m not holding my breath. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firing-us-attorneys-what-crime-was-committed-note-thread-is-from-2007/397072.md?page=2)