First cloned human baby is on it's way!

DOH. I meant to cut and paste correctly. really I did. ignore above post.

Sorry, let me rephrase my statement. Certainly Cloned humans would be put into a seperate category just as test-tube babies are in a different category. But the category is merely that. A category and has no intrinsic meaning other then the requirment for the categorization.

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on a side note, Libertarian. I was wondering. do you have the most freaking posts on sdmb? I think I saw someone else with 8000+, Eve I think.
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To further clarify, we have difficulty cloning specific body parts because of developmental reasons. We develop in a stepwise mannor wherein groups of cells tell the cells next to it what to do. It’s a giant concerted effort reaching back to the original cell. Because of this it is quite difficult to start growing a liver. We’d need a perfectly controlled chemical environment.

Which ones are Australian Aborigines classified as?

Australoid.

And a website I visited a while back said that people in Africa are actually divided into two main “races” or classifications - Negroid and Capoid.

It did not say what the differences were but I am interested if anyone knows.

Harmonix wrote:

Far from it. Handy has more than 10,000, and I think Guin does, too.

Tars, I agree that it would currently be unethical to attempt to clone a human baby. Current cloning technology is no where near safe enough to be ready for human trials. A 1 in 100 success rate might be acceptable for livestock breeders, but it is definately not acceptable for human babies.

But once cloning is as safe as current in-vitro fertilization techniques, I see absolutely no reason to ban its use. Cloning is not unethical in and of itself, although it could be put to unethical uses, just like any other reproductive technology.


Precisely. It’s not as if we’re talking here about Xeroxing human beings.
And even if the clone bore some physical resemblance to the “original” (sorry, I can’t think of another term right now), it won’t necessarily be exactly the same. There are recessive genes, aren’t there? “cc,” the cloned kitten, doesn’t have the same markings as her original.
As Lemur866 pointed out, a cloned child would grow up with different parents, go to different schools, have different friends, experiences, memories, etc., so that it would be an individual, like any of us.

originally posted by Lemur866**

Presently there are people selling their kidneys for 5,000 bucks. Some unfortunates wakeup having been drugs and operated on, one of their kidneys gone.

I think it unwise to attempt to claim that the practice of cloning will not produce its own unique problems. There may be unforeseen consequences.

But that’s not to say we therefore should not clone.

Volunteer(?)

And until that is, uterine replicators are invented which may not be far off.

You don’t know that. Females (and eventually possibly males) could rent out their uterus to incubate a clone that is biologically not theirs, and have little or no interest as to how it will be raised or by whom.

And say what you want, it’s odd to be a product of a skin graph.

But then it’s also odd that we come from each others bodies. Suspended in liquid.

Another unknown. What is consent to some is manipulation to others.

If there is a lot of money to be made in cloning deception will follow.

And if there is such a thing as uniqueness in the twenty billion(?) humans that have so far existed on this planet, cloning by decreasing diversity will alter that perhaps necessary aspect of all life.

Cloning leads to less diversity doesn’t it? And if practiced extensively what impact that will have on the species, we do not know.

Is it not true? There is only one donor. And only one biological parent or person genetically connected to the clone. No?

If your wife is both the nuclear donor and the incubator, you as father would have to adopt what appears to be your own child as you would have no biological association to it.

Yes, theoretically. But whose kid is it? Who will raise it?

And in another sense, the kid is an off spring of you, not your parents.

Can your parents be held responsible for your clone in a court of law, if they had no say in the matter, and possible no knowledge of its creation until after the fact?

I think not.

We don’t know where cloning is going or how it will unfold as a practice of procreation, so I think we are agnostic on the question of whether cloning creates or [or will create] or be associated with ethical problems.

Once cloning is perfected will egg/sperm birth become a dinosaur?

Dude, there’s this thing, called sex, which has orgasms and stuff. So…no!

Of course the grand parents will not be held accountable. The parent is the genetic donor. there will also be an egg donor, which may or may not be the genetic donor. There will also be a surogate mother, who may or may not be the genetic donor. There will also be people who will raise the child, who may or may not include the genetic donor. Or they may include parents who are trying to c.one a child that died. There is no guarentee there is only one parent.

Yes, but after pigs start growing cheep organs no one will care about illegally making cloned people to make organs. plus raising a kid to say age 13 will cost more than you would make from chopping it up like a stolen car.
and Lemur, i am all for cloning once we know how to do it safely 9as i have stated in several other threads on the subject). We currently don’t know crap, so anyone who tries is making a big mistake (and some are too arrogant and glory hunting to see)

Iamthat writes:
Some unfortunates wakeup having been drugs and operated on, one of their kidneys gone.
Dude. Quite aside from your eccentric syntax, that one is well and truly an urban myth. Check snopes

Iamthat:

There is a big difference between an adult selling their kidney for $5000 dollars and murdering a child to get their organs. I’m sure there are many people out there willing to murder a child in order to prolong their own life. But how many doctors are willing to murder a child to prolong someone else’s life? Yes, doctors can be bribed. How big a bribe would be needed? There are many pschopaths in the world, and there are many millionaires. How many millionaire pschopaths are there? And how are you going to keep the murder of this child a secret? How are you going to keep the creation of this child a secret?

Now, back to the parentage of the clone. The point that I’ve been trying and failing to make, is that the parentage of ANY child is a SOCIAL decision, NOT a genetic decision. Yes, in many cases the genetic parents of a child are also the social parents. But in many many cases, children are raised by genetically unrelated people. A social decision is made as to who will be the parents of the child. Maybe the child will be adopted. Maybe the mother is a genetic parent to the child, but the social father is not the genetic father. Maybe the child is raised by the mother’s parents. Maybe the genetic parents have their parental rights terminated. Maybe one parent has no desire to parent the child and their only contact is to send a support check once a month.

The point is, the parent of the clone is whoever we decide is the parent of the clone. The nuclear donor would only be the parent of the clone if they are the ones who decide that the clone should be created. But I could voluntarily donate nuclear material to you, and if you could had a clone of me made then you would be the parent of the child, not me. Think about it for a second. Is a sperm donor the parent of the child created from his donated sperm? In a genetic sense, yes. But socially, no. He has no rights and no responsibilities.

You claim that if the mother of the child is the nuclear donor, then the husband would have to adopt the child in order to be its parent. Nope. Under our law, the husband of a woman is legally assumed to be the father of her children. He has a certain amount of time to deny parentage, but if he doesn’t then he is the legal father, no matter who the mother slept with. When my daughter was born, I became her legal father simply because we wrote my name on the birth certificate. They didn’t do any sort of genetic test to determine if we were genetically related. And of course, any woman who gives birth is legally presumed to be the mother of the child. Surrogate mothers have to sign several pounds of legal documents stating that they will not be the parent of the child.

So if a baby is born, the presumed parents are clear. The woman who gave birth, and her husband. If any other social parentage is intended, it will have to be arranged in advance.

Think about how we do in-vitro fertilization. There are ethical guidelines for doctors about whether it would be ethical to perform various fertility treatments or not. Most doctors won’t perform fertillity treatments unless the resulting child would have a stable two parent home.

How exactly does cloning create any more problems than regular parentage? Yes, clones can be created to be slaves. But so can regular children. Why don’t people raise their naturally born children to be slaves? The same protections that protect other children will protect cloned children. Yes, there could be a lot of money in creating cloned slaves. So what? There could be a lot of money in non-cloned slaves. What is it about cloning that makes the enslavement of clones more likely than the enslavement of everyone else? Money? What does money have to do with it? Why don’t the people with money simply arrange for normal everyday slaves?

I just checked. Handy’s post count is over 13,500, and Guinastasia’s is over 11,000. Cripes! My paltry post count of only 9,650 just ain’t what it used to be.

I think Coldfire is up there around Guin somewhere.

** Primaflora**

Yes but I think it also happens.

Have a look:>>

http://www.multiline.com.au/~donor/black.html

Tars Tarkas

quote:

Sex, yes!

My point was once cloning is perfected and uterine replicators are created (were going in that direction), it may become a preference of choice to procreate through cloning, and incubate in replicators.

It may become common and an even safer practice for all concerned as cloning may provide greater control over the whole process, resulting in less birth defects, and less risk, since no pregnant human would be involved.
Cloning as a preferred choice for procreation may also eliminate the necessity for male/female union on those grounds. They become less dependent upon each other, which is not necessarily a bad consequence. Gay couples could easily acquire off spring in the same manner as everyone else.

No there is no guarantee either way. But if no sperm donation is necessary, males traditionally one of two parents, are some what out of the picture.

** Lemur866**

Actually I think it is more like 30,000—70,000 $, my error.

But my point was selling organs is already taking place, is already a problem,. How wide spread no one may know.

If acquiring a new heart or liver will extend ones life for another fifty years, and these and other body parts are for sale and available, and one has the cash, most I suspect would want to take steps in acquiring a new organ.

Cloning provides yet another means to a new organ , and therefore enters in the equation, as a viable option.

If we can create a clone without a brain, without consciousness or thoughts, without sentience, and use the organs and body as spare parts some may not consider that unethical. entrepreneurs could have whole nurseries set up, with organs available on demand., one costume made(?) and/or genetically similar to you.
When we identify ourselves as a body/brain, as material, extension of bodily life (through cloning and other methods) becomes significant. And of course there are others issues of, soul, spirituality, and the question of. “Who or what are we?” that is perhaps for another thread.

Do we already have laws layed out for clones?
Parentage is a social contract, I agree.

Many married couples have been separated for decades yet remain married. If one of them , say the female has other children with another partner, the X would have no parental rights or responsibilities, mainly because there is no biological connection.
He is not their father, in day to day life, nor is he by law. Am I wrong?
In unusual circumstances it takes more then a marriage certificate to be a father.

My point was that since there is no sperm donation the father has no biological connection to the child. You may site adoption and claim there is no difference, But there is. I am not saying there is necessarily a decrease in any love or affection you as a parent may have for the child. But there is a difference between being biologically connected to your off spring and not being. In the same way there is a difference between being a clone and being a non-clone. Is that difference insignificant? I don’t know I am not a clone as far as I know, nor have I ever met one. But I do think in some circumstances the difference will/would be significant. Especially if it becomes common practice to use anonymous donors.

Do you think lack of diversity and its implications can potentially create, emotional, ethical, spiritual, psychological etc problems?

Do you think, as many on this thread seem to, that we have got it wrapped up or figured out in terms of the above issues and others, when the FIRST human clone has yet to be created? Quite premature and maybe insecure I think.

Again, I have to keep bringing this up because you don’t seem to understand it. There are no uterine replicators. They don’t exist. To even say that we are “moving in that direction” is untrue. There has never been even an unsuccesful attempt at in-vitro gestation of a mammal. It has not happened. It is not happening. We have no idea about how to make it happen. There isn’t even any ongoing research on the subject. Get it? There is no such thing. There will not be such a thing. And even if there were, the vast vast majority of children gestated in-vitro will be sexually created children, although perhaps created via in-vitro fertillization.

Yes, cloning “as a perferred choice” for reproduction might cause some problems. But why do you think that cloning would become a preferred choice? Look, if asexuality and childlessness became a preferred choice, then the human race would go extinct. If polygamy and 25 kids became a preferred choice, we’d have massive overpopulation. But I don’t believe that either choice will become preferred. Why would cloning become a preferred choice? Yes, if we assume that human society will make insane, inexplicable decisions in the future, then anything is possible. But I believe that people will tend to make comprehensible decisions.

But even if many people decided to have cloned children, what would that mean? Yes, cloning decreases diversity. But so does having fewer children. If I clone myself, I haven’t decreased the diversity of the human genome any more that if I never had kids at all. In fact, I’ve decreased it LESS, since my genes will still be present in my cloned child. If I never have kids, then any unique genes that I possess will be lost forever. If we ban cloning on genetic diversity grounds, we would logically also have to ban not having children.

You ask if we already have laws layed out for the parentage of clones. No, of course we don’t. Such laws are not present because the vast majority of people don’t understand cloning and don’t favor reproductive cloning. Since people don’t support creating cloned children at all, of course there hasn’t developed case law explicitly about the parentage of cloned children. But my point is that explict laws are unneccesary. Even without such laws, we still have courts. If the parentage of a cloned child is disputed, a judge will simply rule based on the best interests of the child. The cloned child will never be judged a slave, because in this country involutary servitude is prohibited by the 13th amendment.

Now, on to some other points. What if a married couple is separated? And what if the woman has a child by another man? Well, the children will STILL be considered to be legally the children of her husband, unless either the husband, or the woman, or the genetic father take steps. The point is that the genetic background of the child is only taken into account when the parentage of the child is disputed.

Who is going to dispute the parentage of a cloned child, and why? If a couple goes to a fertillity clinic and asks for a clone of one of them to be created, and when the baby is born they put both their names on the birth certificate, what interest does anyone have in disputing that? Remember, that our courts are already able to adjuticate custody of children. Genetic relationships are taken into account, but they are not the last word. The last word is the best interest of the child.

Another issue. The harvesting of organs from clones. First of all, this is a problem that would go away if we can grow whole organs. Growing headless clones in order to harvest their organs strikes me as incredibly wasteful and costly. A headless clone would be the equivalent of a patient on permanent intensive care. How much are people going to be willing to spend for this? Do you have any idea how expensive intenisve care treatment is? And exactly how many doctors are you going to find who would be willing to care for such a patient?

Now, about the selling of organs.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020928/main9.htm
Here is an article from India, about the organ trade. It states that the person who sold their kidney got 30,000 rupees. At 2002.12.03 23:47:51 GMT, 1 INR went for 0.0207290 USD. 30,000.00 India Rupees = 621.869 United States Dollars. Less than $1,000.

The idea that people will pay any price for black market organs is false, simply because most people don’t have thousands of dollars to squander on risky medical procedures. If an insurance company won’t pay for the transplant, it doesn’t happen. Now, how many insurance companies are going to pay for murdering a child in order to harvest their organs? And why aren’t the rich creating children the normal way, testing them for compatibility, then murdering them if they are a tissue match? Your child is very likely going to be a good candidate for organ compatibility. Why doesn’t Bill Gates murder his children and harvest their organs?

Yes, I have met clones, as I’ve stated before. I grew up with clones in my family. My younger sisters are clones. Cloning sometimes occurs naturally, and my sisters are the result of natural cloning.

Plenty of single women are having kids anyway. Look at Murphy Brown. children being raised outside of the mother would have less of the mother/child bond that is formed by the child growing inside the women. This is not desireable, women want to have the kid like normal, not grown in a tube. Genetic screening for birth defects for at risk families will be done in uetro early on, in case abortion is wanted, with fertilized eggs that will be implanted in the mother, or eggs and sperm will scanned individually and then fetilized and implanted. (the last one is the most expensive IIRC, but you won’t have to deal with abortion protestors.)

Supossedly he is in some states, i’m trying to find the thread that says so, but search has decided to ebb out it’s lifeforce to next to nothing. Will try later, i got to get to language lab.

Hereis the link

The link to the op-ed cited in that thread seems to be broken. Pity.