# First commandment - suggestion of polytheism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2007, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238 "2007-04-23T01:47:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/61 "2007-04-25T02:43:06Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] I would argue that not all early Judaism was polytheistic. Obviously some people practiced a syncretic Jewish/Canaanite religion, but I think we can also see by the number of people that raise a fuss about them in the OT that there were also some groups who were more adamant about monotheism. [/QUOTE] But the OT was not written at time contemporaneous to the eras in question. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/62 "2007-04-25T03:57:00Z")
Obviously not. Which is why the people who are practicing a more syncretic religion are vilified. I’m not a biblical scholar, but I think it still preserves a moderately historical narrative (the later books only, obviously) and there’s no reason to assume that their religion was uniform. ---
**Author:** ![enigm4tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@enigm4tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigm4tic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/63 "2007-04-25T06:42:25Z")
> [@Helen's Eidolen](#): > > I would argue that not all early Judaism was polytheistic. **Obviously** some people practiced a syncretic Jewish/Canaanite religion, but I think we can also see by the number of people that raise a fuss about them in the OT that there were also some groups who were more adamant about monotheism. Obvious to whom, based on what writing? As far as I can tell even the most adament proponents of Yahweh’s worth is based on the solid belief that YHWH is more powerful than any other supernatural power. > [@](#): > > Obviously not. Which is why the people who are practicing a more syncretic religion are vilified. I’m not a biblical scholar, but I think it still preserves a moderately historical narrative (the later books only, obviously) and there’s no reason to assume that their religion was uniform. whom are you siding with here? I’m not sure which “camp” you’re in, are you supporting the idea of early polytheism (it seems to read this way) or not? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/64 "2007-04-25T07:30:54Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Demons are confined to the Satanic kingdom and can’t do ‘good’. [/QUOTE] So they have no free will? Doesn’t that render them blameless for their actions (possession, disease, whatever)? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/65 "2007-04-25T12:06:06Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] So they have no free will? Doesn’t that render them blameless for their actions (possession, disease, whatever)? [/QUOTE] They have free will to act within the satanic kingdom. Demons have already been judged for previous actions. [QUOTE=enigm4tic] um, I wouldn’t have pointed towards that verse if I were you. It seems to place “demons” and “new gods” in distinctly different categories [/QUOTE] Again I am not that well versed in the OT and in a bit of unfamiliar waters. Just taking verse 17 alone in a different translation NIV: > [@](#): > > 17 They sacrificed to demons, which are not God— > gods they had not known, > gods that recently appeared, > gods your fathers did not fear. I would say that demons are those ‘gods’ mentioned. > [@](#): > > it would STILL be a polythiestic interpretation. I guess I’m not getting your point. The way I read it is there are many ‘gods’ - these gods are real and people chose to worship them, so yes we are in agreement that it is a polytheistic interpretation. Here God lets His people know that these gods are inferior to Him, and a inside hint of what the intent of these gods are. I don’t think you can consider one of the books of Moses as revisionist history. I fully beleive that the early Jewish tribes believed that other gods existed, were ‘alive’ and had power but they were not worthy of worship, but sometimes strayed from that. That straying would incur the wrath of God, sometimes lasting for generations. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/66 "2007-04-25T13:57:57Z")
[QUOTE=enigm4tic] Obvious to whom, based on what writing? [/quote] Isn’t that what we’ve been talking about all thread? > [@](#): > > whom are you siding with here? I’m not sure which “camp” you’re in, are you supporting the idea of early polytheism (it seems to read this way) or not? I think that Judaism didn’t develop in a vacuum, nor did they have a hive-mind. I suspect that while the religion was officially monotheistic, some people didn’t see a problem with giving dedications to the Jewish God and Asherah at the same time. This isn’t at all a strange situation - we can see it all the time, even today. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/67 "2007-04-25T20:01:30Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] They have free will to act within the satanic kingdom. Demons have already been judged for previous actions. [/QUOTE] Are you saying this world is the satanic kingdom, 'cos that’s where you have them acting. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/68 "2007-04-25T20:26:26Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Are you saying this world is the satanic kingdom, 'cos that’s where you have them acting. [/QUOTE] Not exactly, more like the battleground between the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Satan. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/69 "2007-04-25T21:47:13Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Not exactly, more like the battleground between the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Satan. [/QUOTE] So they do have the ability to act outside the Kingdom of Satan itself, but can’t choose to do good? I’m _still_ not seeing the free will here. Instead, I’m picturing an attack of the Eeevul robots from I, Robot, all red lights and malice. But no thought. Kinda takes the sting out of demonic behaviour if you know the lil’ devils _just can’t help themselves_. They’re just drawn that way. ---
**Author:** ![enigm4tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@enigm4tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigm4tic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/70 "2007-04-25T21:56:35Z")
> [@Helen's Eidolin](#): > > I think that Judaism didn’t develop in a vacuum, nor did they have a hive-mind. I suspect that while the religion was officially monotheistic, some people didn’t see a problem with giving dedications to the Jewish God and Asherah at the same time. This isn’t at all a strange situation - we can see it all the time, even today. > [@](#): > > The way I read it is there are many ‘gods’ - these gods are real and people chose to worship them, so yes we are in agreement that it is a polytheistic interpretation. Here God lets His people know that these gods are inferior to Him, and a inside hint of what the intent of these gods are. sooooo we all agree that the early “monotheistic” religions did indeed ACKNOWLEDGE other gods, they just didnt actually worship them (which I never said they did, the whole book is about how they SHOULDN’T be worshiping them), my point is that they never said they didn’t exist at all. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/71 "2007-04-25T22:01:37Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] In pre-exhilic times, Yahweh even had a girlfriend goddess named Asherah. There are woodens statues and inscriptions identifying Asherah as Yahweh’s consort. [/QUOTE] Not to be a wiseguy, but Wikipedia and its source say “wife” and I’m just wondering why you say “girlfriend” instead. Is there some reason she would not have been considered his wife? * * * True Blue Jack ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/72 "2007-04-25T22:13:21Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] TVTime, you have still not answered my question as to whre these comandments are posted in front of local city offices. I see s civil rights case shaping up here. [/QUOTE] Small town in rural Colorado. Granite thing, about five feet tall, about seven feet across in front of city offices and next to the municipal court. To have a case, somebody has to bring it and no one has in the 15 or so years it has been in place. You’ve got to remember that this is a community if you were to ask what are the three great religions of the world, they would say Lutherans, Baptists, and Methodists…Oh yeah Catholics. I am the only admitted non-Christian in town, but since I am the town newspaper editor, I am permitted to be strange. I did a column on the commandments when the Georgia (?) judge was making such a big deal about it and I asked the mayor, town manager, and police chief what they thought about it. They all pretty much agreed that if anyone complained they would move it or something, but until then, it was the only big piece of granite in town and there were worse life lessons than those. The chief also said his wife (the town clerk who has a window overlooking the open granite book) got a big kick out of watching the little kids reading the commandment about, “coveting your neighbor’s ass,” pointing at it and breaking up. We get our entertainment out here where we can (I did a column on that too). I didn’t respond earlier because I knew I would feel bad about hijacking my own thread. TV ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/73 "2007-04-25T22:27:23Z")
[QUOTE=True Blue Jack] Not to be a wiseguy, but Wikipedia and its source say “wife” and I’m just wondering why you say “girlfriend” instead. Is there some reason she would not have been considered his wife? [/QUOTE] She’s usually referred to as a “consort” rather than a wife. I’m not sure why. I guess it was functionally the same thing but maybe the legal formality implied by the word “wife” had no relevance to gods. There is some interesting stuff on [this page](http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/bible.htm) which claims that “Asherah” was a generic name for any female consort of a god: > [@](#): > > In the earliest Semitic religion, as preserved in Akkadian texts, the divine parents of the other gods were Bull Eland his wife Asherah of the Sea. While both resided above the Dome of the Sky, the locations sacred to them on earth were El’s home on Mount Lel in northern Mesopotamia and Asherah’s domain in the northern waters of the Persian Gulf. Between these places lay the cities of their various children. By 1000 BCE, the Hebrew-speaking authors of the Bible no longer identified a consort of El with this Semitic name. Rather, the word asherah had come to be used as a simple generic for goddesses and especially meant “divine consort” when used with the name of any male deity. > > Babylon’s Marduk, for instance, was mated to Ishtar, the goddess of love, passion, and war. Canaan’s Ba’al, their equivalent of Marduk, also had a consort, Anat, a youthful goddess of warfar who was also called the Maiden. Israel’s Yahweh was no exception to this pattern, as attested by both non-Israelite documents from Palestine and by Hebrew writings as well. His consort was referred to by the phrase “his asherah”. Among the speakers of the western Semitic languages of Palestine, the term “asherah”, derived from the name of Asherah the wife of El himself, has became a generic term for “Divine Wife”. Olyan (1988) has made a persuasive case that the personal name of Yahweh’s wife was Ashtoret, the daughter of Asherah the wife of El. This is the same name given by the Canaanites as the consort of their Baal. Examples of texts that refer to Yahweh and his consort include inscriptions found at Kuntillet `Ajrud, dated between 850 and 750 BCE that read, "I bless you through Yahweh of Samaria, and through his asherah!" From the same period at `El Qom we find the following text: “Uriyahu, the king, has written this. Blessed be Uriyahu through Yahwe, and his enemies have been conquered through Yahweh’s asherah.” Followers of Yahweh continued to worship Ashtoret until the thrid century BCE, as attested by the Elephantine Papyri. This page also contains some good information on the devlopment of monotheism among the ancient Hebrews. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/74 "2007-04-25T22:32:27Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Only if you accept a Trinitarian theology which **raindog** (as a Jehovah’s Witness) does not. [/QUOTE] Drat, I meant to include that caveat. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/75 "2007-04-25T22:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] So they do have the ability to act outside the Kingdom of Satan itself, but can’t choose to do good? I’m still not seeing the free will here. [/QUOTE] **MrDibble** I don’t know what your background is and how much you have studied scripture, and how much you have studied in the context of spiritual warfare. I am just trying to briefly explain a complicated subject. A good analogy is the Japaneses vs. the US in WW2. If we take the demons of the Satanic kingdom as the Japanese warriors. The demons are committed to help the effort of the king (Satan), just as the Japanese warriors were committed to help the emperor. The satanic kingdom does suffer from ‘the fog of war’ and as such the demons determine how to accomplish the goals absent of direct instruction from above, and have a good deal of free will in those ends, although the demons are totally committed to their king. Going a bit further in Christian demonology, The kingdom of God does not suffer from ‘the fog of war’ and it is something that the demons tremble at (supported by scripture). The Father’s will is perfectly aligned with the Son and the Spirit, The Spirit is the Holy Spirit (God is one!) and is in every Christian warrior, so all are perfectly aligned. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/76 "2007-04-25T22:53:46Z")
[QUOTE=enigm4tic] sooooo we all agree that the early “monotheistic” religions did indeed ACKNOWLEDGE other gods, they just didnt actually worship them (which I never said they did, the whole book is about how they SHOULDN’T be worshiping them), my point is that they never said they didn’t exist at all. [/QUOTE] I never had any doubt that other gods were acknowledged, and I beleive they exist today as living supernatural beings, deceiving people to worship them. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/77 "2007-04-25T23:12:51Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] **MrDibble** A good analogy is the Japaneses vs. the US in WW2. If we take the demons of the Satanic kingdom as the Japanese warriors. The demons are committed to help the effort of the king (Satan), just as the Japanese warriors were committed to help the emperor. The satanic kingdom does suffer from ‘the fog of war’ and as such the demons determine how to accomplish the goals absent of direct instruction from above, and have a good deal of free will in those ends, although the demons are totally committed to their king. Going a bit further in Christian demonology, The kingdom of God does not suffer from ‘the fog of war’ and it is something that the demons tremble at (supported by scripture). The Father’s will is perfectly aligned with the Son and the Spirit, The Spirit is the Holy Spirit (God is one!) and is in every Christian warrior, so all are perfectly aligned. [/QUOTE] On second thought, **Valteron** this is a great time for a hijack. After this post, I expect to see somebody go into an analogy using Popeye and Bluto any minute. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/78 "2007-04-25T23:15:57Z")
**kanicbird** , I think the question of “free will” was meant to be applied to the victim of possession, not the perpetrator. If Cho was possessed when he killed all those people at VT, then does he carry the stain of sin for those actions? It seems that, by calling him possessed, you’re saying that he did not murder those people under his own free will, and thus can’t be held spiritually responsible for the carnage he caused. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/79 "2007-04-25T23:35:42Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] kanicbird, I think the question of “free will” was meant to be applied to the victim of possession, not the perpetrator. [/QUOTE] Demonic possession is a bad term in general, it does not usually mean one is owned by a demon, but a demon ‘resides’ inside a person. Demonic oppression is a better term for what we consider demonic possession. Demons will influence people to take certain actions, but they can’t make them take those actions. Demons can also string these influences together in ways to provide the worst outcome (worst for us, best for them). The demons will set up the situation where Cho finds himself in distress in the VA-Tech campus with a gun in his hands, but only Cho can pull the trigger - Satan will not step over that line, Cho has to be the one to do it and the stain of sin is on Cho. Also look at Job, Satan put him through the wringer, and though I don’t believe demons were mentioned in the book, it seems like Job was demoniacally oppressed. Job did sin, he used idol words which went against God, God did call Job on that and Job had to repent. Satan, nor the demons put those words in Job’s mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238/80 "2007-04-25T23:52:52Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] The satanic kingdom does suffer from ‘the fog of war’ … Going a bit further in Christian demonology, The kingdom of God does not suffer from ‘the fog of war’ … [/QUOTE] Put another way, God is omniscient and omnipotent, Satan is not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-commandment-suggestion-of-polytheism/401238.md?page=5)