But the OT was not written at time contemporaneous to the eras in question.
Obviously not. Which is why the people who are practicing a more syncretic religion are vilified. I’m not a biblical scholar, but I think it still preserves a moderately historical narrative (the later books only, obviously) and there’s no reason to assume that their religion was uniform.
Obvious to whom, based on what writing? As far as I can tell even the most adament proponents of Yahweh’s worth is based on the solid belief that YHWH is more powerful than any other supernatural power.
whom are you siding with here? I’m not sure which “camp” you’re in, are you supporting the idea of early polytheism (it seems to read this way) or not?
So they have no free will? Doesn’t that render them blameless for their actions (possession, disease, whatever)?
They have free will to act within the satanic kingdom. Demons have already been judged for previous actions.
Again I am not that well versed in the OT and in a bit of unfamiliar waters. Just taking verse 17 alone in a different translation NIV:
I would say that demons are those ‘gods’ mentioned.
I guess I’m not getting your point. The way I read it is there are many ‘gods’ - these gods are real and people chose to worship them, so yes we are in agreement that it is a polytheistic interpretation. Here God lets His people know that these gods are inferior to Him, and a inside hint of what the intent of these gods are.
I don’t think you can consider one of the books of Moses as revisionist history.
I fully beleive that the early Jewish tribes believed that other gods existed, were ‘alive’ and had power but they were not worthy of worship, but sometimes strayed from that. That straying would incur the wrath of God, sometimes lasting for generations.
Isn’t that what we’ve been talking about all thread?
I think that Judaism didn’t develop in a vacuum, nor did they have a hive-mind. I suspect that while the religion was officially monotheistic, some people didn’t see a problem with giving dedications to the Jewish God and Asherah at the same time. This isn’t at all a strange situation - we can see it all the time, even today.
Are you saying this world is the satanic kingdom, 'cos that’s where you have them acting.
Not exactly, more like the battleground between the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Satan.
So they do have the ability to act outside the Kingdom of Satan itself, but can’t choose to do good? I’m still not seeing the free will here.
Instead, I’m picturing an attack of the Eeevul robots from I, Robot, all red lights and malice. But no thought. Kinda takes the sting out of demonic behaviour if you know the lil’ devils just can’t help themselves. They’re just drawn that way.
sooooo we all agree that the early “monotheistic” religions did indeed ACKNOWLEDGE other gods, they just didnt actually worship them (which I never said they did, the whole book is about how they SHOULDN’T be worshiping them), my point is that they never said they didn’t exist at all.
Not to be a wiseguy, but Wikipedia and its source say “wife” and I’m just wondering why you say “girlfriend” instead. Is there some reason she would not have been considered his wife?
True Blue Jack
Small town in rural Colorado. Granite thing, about five feet tall, about seven feet across in front of city offices and next to the municipal court.
To have a case, somebody has to bring it and no one has in the 15 or so years it has been in place. You’ve got to remember that this is a community if you were to ask what are the three great religions of the world, they would say Lutherans, Baptists, and Methodists…Oh yeah Catholics. I am the only admitted non-Christian in town, but since I am the town newspaper editor, I am permitted to be strange.
I did a column on the commandments when the Georgia (?) judge was making such a big deal about it and I asked the mayor, town manager, and police chief what they thought about it. They all pretty much agreed that if anyone complained they would move it or something, but until then, it was the only big piece of granite in town and there were worse life lessons than those.
The chief also said his wife (the town clerk who has a window overlooking the open granite book) got a big kick out of watching the little kids reading the commandment about, “coveting your neighbor’s ass,” pointing at it and breaking up. We get our entertainment out here where we can (I did a column on that too).
I didn’t respond earlier because I knew I would feel bad about hijacking my own thread.
TV
She’s usually referred to as a “consort” rather than a wife. I’m not sure why. I guess it was functionally the same thing but maybe the legal formality implied by the word “wife” had no relevance to gods.
There is some interesting stuff on this page which claims that “Asherah” was a generic name for any female consort of a god:
This page also contains some good information on the devlopment of monotheism among the ancient Hebrews.
Drat, I meant to include that caveat. Thanks.
MrDibble I don’t know what your background is and how much you have studied scripture, and how much you have studied in the context of spiritual warfare. I am just trying to briefly explain a complicated subject.
A good analogy is the Japaneses vs. the US in WW2. If we take the demons of the Satanic kingdom as the Japanese warriors. The demons are committed to help the effort of the king (Satan), just as the Japanese warriors were committed to help the emperor. The satanic kingdom does suffer from ‘the fog of war’ and as such the demons determine how to accomplish the goals absent of direct instruction from above, and have a good deal of free will in those ends, although the demons are totally committed to their king.
Going a bit further in Christian demonology, The kingdom of God does not suffer from ‘the fog of war’ and it is something that the demons tremble at (supported by scripture). The Father’s will is perfectly aligned with the Son and the Spirit, The Spirit is the Holy Spirit (God is one!) and is in every Christian warrior, so all are perfectly aligned.
I never had any doubt that other gods were acknowledged, and I beleive they exist today as living supernatural beings, deceiving people to worship them.
On second thought, Valteron this is a great time for a hijack. After this post, I expect to see somebody go into an analogy using Popeye and Bluto any minute.
kanicbird, I think the question of “free will” was meant to be applied to the victim of possession, not the perpetrator. If Cho was possessed when he killed all those people at VT, then does he carry the stain of sin for those actions? It seems that, by calling him possessed, you’re saying that he did not murder those people under his own free will, and thus can’t be held spiritually responsible for the carnage he caused.
Demonic possession is a bad term in general, it does not usually mean one is owned by a demon, but a demon ‘resides’ inside a person. Demonic oppression is a better term for what we consider demonic possession.
Demons will influence people to take certain actions, but they can’t make them take those actions. Demons can also string these influences together in ways to provide the worst outcome (worst for us, best for them). The demons will set up the situation where Cho finds himself in distress in the VA-Tech campus with a gun in his hands, but only Cho can pull the trigger - Satan will not step over that line, Cho has to be the one to do it and the stain of sin is on Cho.
Also look at Job, Satan put him through the wringer, and though I don’t believe demons were mentioned in the book, it seems like Job was demoniacally oppressed. Job did sin, he used idol words which went against God, God did call Job on that and Job had to repent. Satan, nor the demons put those words in Job’s mouth.
Put another way, God is omniscient and omnipotent, Satan is not.