# First grade math question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 11, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290 "2015-11-11T14:51:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/61 "2015-11-12T16:57:03Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > “making a 10” or “using a 10 frame” would be jargon you receive in a class. This is supposed to be an evaluation of kids before they ever take the class. It doesn’t make sense to me. 10 frames are introduced in Kindergarten. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/62 "2015-11-12T17:04:53Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Looking for opinions on what the correct answer is for this question on a first grade math test. I’ll post what the answer key says is the correct answer and what I think the correct answer (or at least the most correct answer) should be later. > > [http://i64.tinypic.com/2evdcf8.jpg](http://i64.tinypic.com/2evdcf8.jpg) Is there a one-click link to the problem?- I’m running into stuff that I don’t know how to get past, and I have had to base my replies on inference from others. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/63 "2015-11-12T17:08:38Z")
That is a one-click link to the problem. There’s a bunch of other junk that shows up on the page, but the problem is there. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/64 "2015-11-12T17:18:28Z")
Wendell Wagner writes: \> the\_diego, please be more careful about quoting people. In post #44, you quoted a sentence from the test as if I wrote it. the\_diego quoted you from your post in post 8, please be more careful of your accusations of others. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/65 "2015-11-12T17:27:23Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > “making a 10” or “using a 10 frame” would be jargon you receive in a class. This is supposed to be an evaluation of kids before they ever take the class. It doesn’t make sense to me. Think of it like a clinical trial. If I want to show that my drug that lowers blood pressure works, I have to test everyone’s blood pressure before, and then test it after. Without that initial test, I can only guess how effective the drug is. With the full data, I am able to not just see that it leads to improvements, but also compare it to what other people are doing, run statistical analysis, compare results across years, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/66 "2015-11-12T18:10:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That is a one-click link to the problem. There’s a bunch of other junk that shows up on the page, but the problem is there. Thank you for replying, but with my PC the image of the problem is not there in one click. One click gets me to a site called “tinypic” there is a menu bar near the top with a button that has “images” on it. Clicking that button gets me to a screen where I can browse several pages of images; the OP problem is not on the first page. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/67 "2015-11-12T18:43:37Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > x-ray vision, you say in post #21 that you got the test from the parent of a first-grade student. How did the parent get the test? Did the student bring the test home? Did the parent get it from the teacher? Did the parent get it from another parent? Did the parent get it from an E-mail about the test? Or did they get it in some other way? If you don’t know, please ask the parent. What’s with the interrogation? None of it bears on the question. Somebody who actually works in math education has verified that this is typical first grade math, even if it’s not familiar to us old timers, so I humbly suggest you drop the browbeating. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/68 "2015-11-12T18:46:40Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Thank you for replying, but with my PC the image of the problem is not there in one click. > > One click gets me to a site called “tinypic” there is a menu bar near the top with a button that has “images” on it. Clicking that button gets me to a screen where I can browse several pages of images; the OP problem is not on the first page. If both of these links don’t work, I’ll email you the image: [http://oi64.tinypic.com/2evdcf8.jpg](http://oi64.tinypic.com/2evdcf8.jpg) [![Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/dTbELgw.jpeg "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/dTbELgw) ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/69 "2015-11-12T18:47:59Z")
This feels like one of those viral things where parents (and non-parents) complain about how terrible some “commom core” [sic] math problem is, when it’s really not that hard, and (as many people in this thread have said) tries to teach kids logical mental processes instead of hardwiring the traditional addition/subtraction “carry the one” type processes we learned. I always find them interesting and kind of cool because once I get past the unfamiliar language, I realize, this is how I actually do math in my head, which I felt like was cheating. I think it’s cool that they are teaching kids those tricks now. Unfortunately reason travels at a tenth the speed of outrage. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/70 "2015-11-12T19:02:10Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > this is how I actually do math in my head, which I felt like was cheating. Cheating which works reliably is the whole point of math. The best mathematicians are the ones who come up with ways to cheat at entire sub-fields and/or elaborate on some form of cheating until it is a whole new sub-field. I always thought they should teach linear algebra in high school; the way it allows you to cheat at elementary school algebra is breathtaking, which is why it’s one of the most practically useful fields of mathematics. One of the most important parts of physics is finding a good way to at least approximate your sub-field’s relevant equations such that linear algebra applies to them; once you’ve done that, the opportunities to cheat just open right up. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/71 "2015-11-12T19:35:22Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > If both of these links don’t work, I’ll email you the image: > > [http://oi64.tinypic.com/2evdcf8.jpg](http://oi64.tinypic.com/2evdcf8.jpg) > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](http://imgur.com/dTbELgw) Thanks very much- both of those links get me image. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/72 "2015-11-12T19:58:21Z")
This thread is a lot more interesting than it would seem on the surface. Intrigue, mystery, suspense! ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/73 "2015-11-12T20:17:39Z")
Not to mention paranoia ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/74 "2015-11-12T20:41:07Z")
SERIOUSLY THOUGH WHO GAVE YOU THAT TEST QUESTION??? obligatory lower case letters ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/75 "2015-11-12T21:12:44Z")
Yes, I was able to figure out they wanted 15-5-2. And no, it’s not hard. But if I’m perfectly honest, reading that question kind of pisses me off. To make a ten, what does that even mean? To make a ten? It’s wasted effort and not everyone’s brain works that way. Why not make a twelve? Why not go 15-3-4? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/76 "2015-11-12T21:28:02Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Yes, I was able to figure out they wanted 15-5-2. And no, it’s not hard. But if I’m perfectly honest, reading that question kind of pisses me off. To make a ten, what does that even mean? To make a ten? Presumably, if you were in the test’s intended audience, you’d know what it means: > [@Dorjan](#): > > As a point of anecdote, my 6 year old son is 3 months into 1st grade and gets questions nearly identical to this one on his homework and online practice site. He was able to answer them correctly without any input from me. Kids who have been learning how to use ten frames should understand what is being asked/shown > [@Dorjan](#): > > 10 frames are introduced in Kindergarten. [QUOTE=Barkis, continued] It’s wasted effort and not everyone’s brain works that way. Why not make a twelve? Why not go 15-3-4? [/QUOTE] What are you saying: that kids shouldn’t be taught _any_ specific method, because no matter how you teach them, “not everyone’s brain works that way”? Or that kids should only be taught what you, personally, are used to doing? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/77 "2015-11-12T21:44:57Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Yes, I was able to figure out they wanted 15-5-2. And no, it’s not hard. But if I’m perfectly honest, reading that question kind of pisses me off. To make a ten, what does that even mean? To make a ten? It’s wasted effort and not everyone’s brain works that way. Why not make a twelve? Why not go 15-3-4? I read somewhere that we use a base ten number system. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/78 "2015-11-12T22:40:15Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > x-ray vision, you say in post #21 that you got the test from the parent of a first-grade student. How did the parent get the test? Did the student bring the test home? Did the parent get it from the teacher? Did the parent get it from another parent? Did the parent get it from an E-mail about the test? Or did they get it in some other way? If you don’t know, please ask the parent. I personally stole it from the Department of Education’s secret underground “First Grade Pre-Test” vault and beamed it out to a fewselect people via a number of SETI arrays so as to undermine the basic fabric of American society. X-Ray Vision was obviously one of my unwitting pawns who received the stolen test-question. The collapse of democracy itself now looms large. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/79 "2015-11-13T02:52:17Z")
Drunky Smurf, the\_diego quoted my quote from x-ray vision. He made it look like I was the one who originally said the quote. I wasn’t. tnetennba and Fenris, I was trying to figure out how x-ray vision got hold of the test. As I said in post #31, it sounds from what x-ray vision has said that his friend got the test because the friend’s child brought the test home because the students were expected to bring it home. In post #34, Chronos suggested several other ways that the friend could have gotten the test. I want to know how the friend got the test. If the teacher used the test (which, again, was given at the beginning of first grade) merely to find out if any of the students knew of this mathematical technique (which, again, was only going to be taught later in the first grade) before that student entered the first grade, then the teacher should never send the test home with the student. This would be like the teacher, at the beginning of the school year, giving all the students a test of their reading level which included some questions which assumed a reading level far beyond that of the average student, and then the teacher sends the test with the student’s answers home to the parents. You never send such a test (which merely lets a teacher know if any students already know all the material that they will be learning later in the year) home for the parents to see. That’s none of the parents’ business. The only reason that you let a parent see a test is to let them know what the student is currently learning. If you give the parent a test which is about material that the students will only learn months later, you are unnecessarily worrying the parents. They will ask their children, “What does this material in the test mean?” The child will say, “I don’t know. The teacher hasn’t taught us any of this. I don’t know why they put it on the test. Nobody in the class even understood the questions.” You don’t ever make the parent think that their child is being asked about things they haven’t been taught yet. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290/80 "2015-11-13T02:58:27Z")
That’s utter nonsense. As I said up thread, we saw all the kids baseline work and their progress work over the whole year. Teachers don’t keep secrets from parents about their children’s academics. Where do you get such a notion? And you want to know what the child says “it’s a pretest mom so the teacher knows what we need to learn”. You think they keep secrets from the kids, too? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-grade-math-question/737290.md?page=5)