# First major home remodeling project: advice requested **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087 "2017-03-01T05:15:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/41 "2017-03-02T20:32:50Z")
Oh - and let me say, other than the HVAC, everything on your initial list is pretty small potatoes. New electrical box, a grand or so and a day’s work. Go with 200 amps. Hot water heater, same. A couple of hours. Paint - my wife and I generally do ourselves. But get a good crew, and they’ll do the whole house in a day. I’ve heard a lot of people praise radiators, and say the optimal setup is radiator heat w/ central air. You might be able to save $/hassle by installing some ventless AC/air filtration system. Just a thought. Another thought - if this is your “forever” home, don’t put anything cheap in it. Wait until you can afford the light fixture you love, instead of putting something cheap in fast. Another thing - never let a project have you without toilet/shower for more than a day. And if you are living in the house during work, make sure that SOME area of the house is livable at all times, so you can close the door and escape the dust and plastic sheeting. I’m sure you know of the Chicago bungalow association. I bet they have tons of resources. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/42 "2017-03-03T03:23:51Z")
> [@arseNal](#): > > Just speaking as a layman, but agree with this. You’ve said you want to keep some of the vintage features of the house, well radiators are definitely a vintage feature. Tune up the boiler, replace the vents on the radiators, maybe have new covers built for them (old busted radiator covers are definitely an eyesore, admittedly). Steam or hot water heat is just so much more comfortable than forced air IMO. In terms of air quality, forced air might even be worse for those lungs of yours. It’s drier for sure. Filtration can also be done separately. > > And, save yourself a bunch of money on new HVAC and ductwork. I will definitely explore all sorts of HVAC options. And the radiators are actually in really good shape. But they also take up a LOT of space. Dry air doesn’t bother my lungs; mold and various airborne allergens do. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/43 "2017-03-03T03:32:41Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Oh - and let me say, other than the HVAC, everything on your initial list is pretty small potatoes. New electrical box, a grand or so and a day’s work. Go with 200 amps. Hot water heater, same. A couple of hours. Paint - my wife and I generally do ourselves. But get a good crew, and they’ll do the whole house in a day. We have someone for painting; he is the husband of one of my co-workers, and he charged us a quite reasonable amount to paint all of our current condo for sale, and I trust him alone in our house. We did paint a couple of rooms ourselves in our current place, and his work looks so much better than ours that I’d rather just pay him and be done with it. As for the HVAC, electrical, and other initial stuff, we plan to do all that before we move in. The attic will have to wait until we sell our current condo because we need the money from the sale. > [@](#): > > Another thought - if this is your “forever” home, don’t put anything cheap in it. Wait until you can afford the light fixture you love, instead of putting something cheap in fast. Absolutely! But we should have enough from the proceeds of the condo to do pretty much whatever we want to the attic, within reason, and not to have to skimp on smaller things like light fixtures. So glad we refinanced to the 15-year mortgage a few years back; it’s meant we have been paying down a large chunk of principal every month instead of almost all interest, so we should have a chunk of equity even if we don’t make a profit on the actual sale. > [@](#): > > Another thing - never let a project have you without toilet/shower for more than a day. And if you are living in the house during work, make sure that SOME area of the house is livable at all times, so you can close the door and escape the dust and plastic sheeting. The nice thing about the attic project is that except for whatever chunks of time are needed to connect up the electrical and plumbing to the rest of the house, it’s physically separate from the existing living space, which hopefully means minimal disruption. And my asthmatic self is not going to live in a construction zone! > [@](#): > > I’m sure you know of the Chicago bungalow association. I bet they have tons of resources. I’ve heard of it, but thanks for the reminder to check out what they actually offer. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/44 "2017-03-03T04:21:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’ll need someone to draw up plans for your permit. This is not something a first time home remodeler can do. You might even need the services of a structural engineer, depending on the scope of work. Your architect or designer can tell whether you will need one or not. But no way you’ll get a building permit without a well-drawn up set of plans. [Looks like for the attic, at least, we are legally required to have an architect or structural engineer draw up plans, etc.](https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/bldgs/general/Homeowner/GuidetoPermitsFinal.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/45 "2017-03-03T07:00:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’ve gotten estimates for significant home construction projects including adding 2nd stories, additions, attic build outs, as well as HVAC and rewiring. In my experience pricing can vary widely. Like, I had one project quoted at $80K, and the same project from another contractor quoted at $220K. It’s bizarre. I assume some element of quality, labor costs, and materials factor into this but I couldn’t predict based on the conversations I had with the different contractors. It can also mean that the lower bids are leaving things out, or that the higher ones are basically saying “not really interested but not allowed to say it out loud.” ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/46 "2017-03-03T14:30:55Z")
My two cents is that for a medium-sized renovation (like the attic) that’s being done by a contractor, it can be really valuable to have an externally-imposed deadline that the builders can identify with, to minimize ‘disappearing contractor’ syndrome. In the book _A Year In Provence_, the author had the brilliant inspiration of inviting the half-dozen subcontractors and workers (and, importantly, their wives) to a Christmas party in the renovated house, reasoning correctly that the wives wouldn’t permit things to be incomplete for the party. Of course everyone laughed when the author asked if they’d be done by Christmas and assured him no problem it will be done long before then, and of course the final bits of the project were done the day before the party (which couldn’t be rescheduled because you can’t reschedule Christmas). In the Quercus house, we cleverly arranged it so the Sprout was going to arrive around the mildly pessimistic completion date. Of course the contractors assured us they’d be done by then, no problem at all, and of course the final work was done the day before the Sprout arrived. I’m not saying you should add to your family just to ensure that your contractor finishes on time, I’m just saying it’s a good option. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/47 "2017-03-15T17:55:18Z")
:: bump :: It just (re)occurred to me that if we’re going to install new HVAC stuff and a new water heater anyway, and given that the roof is relatively new, maybe it would make sense to go solar for heat, hot water, or even both. I don’t think I know anyone in the States with solar anything, though the in-laws (in Cyprus) have solar hot water and it’s quite common there. Has anyone here ever installed solar heat or hot water? Is it insanity even to think about it in Chicago? What are the pros and cons, and what questions should we ask? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/48 "2017-03-15T18:54:20Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Well, let’s see **if I can afford him** , first 🙂 … I know he’s **an honest guy.** If you can’t afford him, you can’t afford to do the construction. A good architect is absolutely vital for a job this big.\* This is WAY beyond your ability to plan and supervise by yourself, since you have zero experience. You need an architect not just to draw plans and negotiate the Byzantine labyrinth of procedures for getting a building permit from city hall…You need the architect to STAY on the job after he draws the plans on paper. You need him to speak to the contractor about technical details. When the contractor tells you he needs an extra $10,000 to cover the unexpected x,y,and z…you can say, “just a second, let me dial the architect”,–hand your cell phone to the contractor and say, "I’ll let you explain it to him directly, okay?. Suddenly the price will drop by half. You need the architect to drop by the house once a week for a half hour, to keep an eye on things, and compare the actual work to the specifications in the plans.–And you need to make sure the contractor _knows_ that you have hired a professional architect who might drop by any time of day, (and maybe catch him red-handed.) \*(Even though it is _not_ a big job to a professional architect, and he may laugh at you and decline to work with you because it’s so small.If so–ask him to recommend a trusted colleague) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/49 "2017-03-15T19:11:53Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > If you can’t afford him, you can’t afford to do the construction. > A good architect is absolutely vital for a job this big.\* This is WAY beyond your ability to plan and supervise by yourself, since you have zero experience. > > You need an architect not just to draw plans and negotiate the Byzantine labyrinth of procedures for getting a building permit from city hall…You need the architect to STAY on the job after he draws the plans on paper. > You need him to speak to the contractor about technical details. > When the contractor tells you he needs an extra $10,000 to cover the unexpected x,y,and z…you can say, “just a second, let me dial the architect”,–hand your cell phone to the contractor and say, "I’ll let you explain it to him directly, okay?. Suddenly the price will drop by half. > > You need the architect to drop by the house once a week for a half hour, to keep an eye on things, and compare the actual work to the specifications in the plans.–And you need to make sure the contractor _knows_ that you have hired a professional architect who might drop by any time of day, (and maybe catch him red-handed.) > > \*(Even though it is _not_ a big job to a professional architect, and he may laugh at you and decline to work with you because it’s so small.If so–ask him to recommend a trusted colleague) All good points. I know we need someone who knows what he/she is doing, that’s for sure. I also work in a field (immigration law) where an incompetent practitioner can really ruin someone’s life, and as one of the partners here puts it, it’s always more difficult and expensive to unscramble an egg. Just talked to my former boss, who was running out again, but we set up a time to talk on the phone Friday about the initial work we want to do as soon as we close on the house so that it’s easier to coordinate with the main project later. Anyone want to help brainstorm a list of questions I should ask him? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/50 "2017-03-15T21:15:19Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > If you can’t afford him, you can’t afford to do the construction. > A good architect is absolutely vital for a job this big.\* This is WAY beyond your ability to plan and supervise by yourself, since you have zero experience. > > You need an architect not just to draw plans and negotiate the Byzantine labyrinth of procedures for getting a building permit from city hall…You need the architect to STAY on the job after he draws the plans on paper. > You need him to speak to the contractor about technical details. > When the contractor tells you he needs an extra $10,000 to cover the unexpected x,y,and z…you can say, “just a second, let me dial the architect”,–hand your cell phone to the contractor and say, "I’ll let you explain it to him directly, okay?. Suddenly the price will drop by half. > > You need the architect to drop by the house once a week for a half hour, to keep an eye on things, and compare the actual work to the specifications in the plans.–And you need to make sure the contractor _knows_ that you have hired a professional architect who might drop by any time of day, (and maybe catch him red-handed.) > > \*(Even though it is _not_ a big job to a professional architect, and he may laugh at you and decline to work with you because it’s so small.If so–ask him to recommend a trusted colleague) Are you sure that’s all within the purview of an architect? I’d have thought that you’d hire a general contractor to do most of the project management, permit-getting, etc… and he’d then hire subcontractors to perform the actual work, and ride herd on them as well. The architect would be the guy drawing up the plans and discussing the actual implementation with the GC. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/51 "2017-03-15T21:24:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Are you sure that’s all within the purview of an architect? I’d have thought that you’d hire a general contractor to do most of the project management, permit-getting, etc… and he’d then hire subcontractors to perform the actual work, and ride herd on them as well. The architect would be the guy drawing up the plans and discussing the actual implementation with the GC. He’s also a GC. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/52 "2017-03-15T22:42:18Z")
Just an example of what you’ll be facing: We’re having our basement done right now. Nothing fancy - just drywall dividing the large space into 3 rooms, plank vinyl flooring, and a lot of electrical. Yesterday, after the electricians were done, we asked our GC, “Hey, isn’t that outlet supposed to be higher on the wall? In fact, isn’t that mark on the wall indicating exactly where it is supposed to be?” “Uh, yeah, I’ll move it.” Today, when the drywallers were here, my wife noticed that a wall that HAD to be at least 18" from the doorjamb to corner to accommodate some shelving, was actually framed out as 13". And these are (in our opinions) reputable tradespersons whom we are paying a pretty hefty chunk of change. If you care about how it turns out, and if you make decisions in the planning process that you’d like to see in the final project, you are going to have to inspect the job daily. My wife and I hate the way it makes us feel and sound. You’d like to just leave it up to them, but they keep fucking up, and then expect you to pay for and live with the results. ---
**Author:** ![Ennui](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ennui/32/3396_2.png) [@Ennui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennui)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/53 "2017-03-16T06:20:08Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > …,… The main reason we want to do a master suite on the second floor is that there’s no room in the first-floor bedrooms for a king-sized bed (and we want to add a second bathroom somewhere anyway), but if we need to use a queen-sized bed for a while in one of the first-floor bedrooms, that’s fine. But I will talk to whatever general contractor we end up with about adaptability/accessibility issues, for sure. Elsewhere in the thread it was mentioned that you may need to widen the stairway, can you get a king sized box spring up those stairs? Might be something to consider. I’ve heard conflicting opinions of what are called “bi fold box springs” but they do exist. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/54 "2017-03-16T12:43:50Z")
> [@Ennui](#): > > Elsewhere in the thread it was mentioned that you may need to widen the stairway, can you get a king sized box spring up those stairs? Might be something to consider. I’ve heard conflicting opinions of what are called “bi fold box springs” but they do exist. Yeah, you wouldn’t want to get a sofa stuck in there… ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/55 "2017-03-16T16:05:11Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Yeah, you wouldn’t want to get a sofa stuck in there… The bed we already have is a split box spring. The mattress will have to live in the basement for a while, but the current plan is that one of the halves of the box spring will be a twin box spring in the meantime for whichever one of us is an insomniac on any given night. We’ll have to come up with a twin mattress at some point after we move, but that will be handy later for guests anyway. Luckily we currently have a queen bed in the guest room, so that will just become the main bed in the interim. If we take out the radiators, the king bed will fit in one of the first floor bedrooms, just barely, but that won’t leave room for much of anything else. But that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/56 "2017-03-16T16:25:14Z")
Attempted Hitchhiker’s Guide reference. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/57 "2017-03-16T16:30:42Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Attempted Hitchhiker’s Guide reference. I think I last read that book in the 1980s - it’s been a while! ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/58 "2017-03-16T17:13:55Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > I think I last read that book in the 1980s - it’s been a while! Been a while for me as well. In fact, I believe it was Dirk Gently. A sofa got stuck in a stairwell. Not only couldn’t they move it up or down, but it is proven that it couldn’t have gotten in that position in the first place. Hilarity ensues… ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/59 "2017-03-17T00:22:19Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > :: bump :: > > It just (re)occurred to me that if we’re going to install new HVAC stuff and a new water heater anyway, and given that the roof is relatively new, maybe it would make sense to go solar for heat, hot water, or even both. > > I don’t think I know anyone in the States with solar anything, though the in-laws (in Cyprus) have solar hot water and it’s quite common there. Has anyone here ever installed solar heat or hot water? Is it insanity even to think about it in Chicago? What are the pros and cons, and what questions should we ask? I think your best bet is to call a solar installation contractor (or two), and have them come by. They’ll know what’s possible and what makes sense, and should be aware of the federal and state/local incentives (which can be substantial enough to make the difference between ‘money hole’ and ‘pays for itself in a few years’). ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087/60 "2017-03-17T03:45:22Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > I think your best bet is to call a solar installation contractor (or two), and have them come by. They’ll know what’s possible and what makes sense, and should be aware of the federal and state/local incentives (which can be substantial enough to make the difference between ‘money hole’ and ‘pays for itself in a few years’). On a related subject, a friend of mine found [this nifty tool](https://www.technologyreview.com/s/603866/googles-new-tool-says-nearly-80-percent-of-roofs-are-sunny-enough-for-solar-panels/), which says the roof of the new place is probably not suitable for solar panels. But it’s specific to heat, not hot water, and I certainly wouldn’t make any major decisions based on a Google tool! But it’s kind of cool, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-major-home-remodeling-project-advice-requested/781087.md?page=4)