# First (maybe just early?) "Holy shit" moment in evolutionary timeline? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 29, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901 "2022-03-29T13:39:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/1 "2022-03-29T13:39:02Z")
I assume that for a long time people simply had no idea how long the universe, the earth, life, human life, etc. existed, so either they went with “Who knows? Dumb question” or “This very smart person says it’s x long, so I’ll go with that” and of course more recently, most Jews and Christians pointed to the Bible and guesstimated (with help from Bishop Ussher) a few thousand years for all of it to have started. But at some point, I imagine, some proto-scientific thinkers started thinking in terms of millions of years rather than thousands of years, even if only in terms of “Why not millions? Could that be possible?” sort of thinking. Who were the first people to postulate a timeline of many millions of years, or even billions for the lifespan of the universe? Were they hooted out of the intellectual community? Ignored? Killed as blashemers? Self-censored? Fitted out for straitjackets? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/2 "2022-03-29T13:55:26Z")
The scope of your question is a bit broad. For a our narrow western population it was Darwin. His concepts allowed academics to discuss history without taking the Biblical flood into account. That opened the modern studies of anthropology and geology. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/3 "2022-03-29T13:56:07Z")
The very short age for the universe is a very Christian thing. Many cultures have allowed for an extremely old world all along. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/4 "2022-03-29T14:01:38Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > For a our narrow western population it was Darwin. His concepts allowed academics to discuss history without taking the Biblical flood into account. That opened the modern studies of anthropology and geology. James Hutton would like a word with you. > **[James Hutton: The Founder of Modern Geology | AMNH](https://www.amnh.org/learn-teach/curriculum-collections/earth-inside-and-out/james-hutton)** > > Hutton proposed that geologic forces operate at the same rate today as in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/5 "2022-03-29T14:02:06Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > it was Darwin. Really? No one before him had entertained the possibility? If so, can we track the actual moment old Chuck D. thunk it up? Did he make a diary notation. “Had the oddest notion this afternoon, that perhaps humankind could be more than 10,000 years old, and lickety-split had a second thought: why not 100,000? Or even a milliard? Then I took a nap and made myself a nice cuppa tea when I awoke, but the idea lingers…” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/6 "2022-03-29T14:06:47Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Really? No one before him had entertained the possibility? Geologists had been pointing out that the geology of the earth clearly pointed to a much greater length of existence than the few thousand years that Jewish and Chrustian chronologies implied. In particular: > [@](#): > > [James Hutton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hutton) (1726-1797) is often viewed as the first modern geologist.[[72]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology#cite_note-72) In 1785 he presented a paper entitled _Theory of the Earth_ to the [Royal Society of Edinburgh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Society_of_Edinburgh). In his paper, he explained his theory that the Earth must be much older than had previously been supposed to allow enough time for mountains to be eroded and for [sediments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sediment) to form new rocks at the bottom of the sea, which in turn were raised up to become dry land. Hutton published a two-volume version of his ideas in 1795.[[73]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology#cite_note-73) > **[Geology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology)** > > Geology (from Ancient Greek γῆ (gê) 'earth', and λoγία (-logía) 'study of, discourse') is a branch of natural science concerned with the Earth and other astronomical objects, the rocks of which they are composed, and the processes by which they change over time. Modern geology significantly overlaps all other Earth sciences, including hydrology. It is integrated with Earth system science and planetary science. > Geology describes the structure of the Earth on and beneath its surface and the proc... ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/7 "2022-03-29T14:06:52Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > James Hutton would like a word with you. My sincere apologies to Mr. Hutton. However, Darwin was important in removing the flood barrier. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/8 "2022-03-29T14:11:10Z")
Book recommendation time! > **[The Map that Changed the World](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Map_that_Changed_the_World)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > The Map that Changed the World is a 2001 book by Simon Winchester about English geologist William Smith and his great achievement, the first geological map of England, Wales and southern Scotland. > Smith's was the first national-scale geological map, and by far the most accurate of its time. His pivotal insights were that each local sequence of rock strata was a subsequence of a single universal sequence of strata and that these rock strata coul... ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/9 "2022-03-29T14:12:09Z")
Yeah. As I recall, by the time Darwin came along it was widely accepted that the Earth was very old. Darwin’s theory wasn’t controversial because it agreed that the Earth was old. Even the antievolutionists, had long accepted that. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/10 "2022-03-29T14:13:04Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > No one before him had entertained the possibility? Of course not, as others are pointing out. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/11 "2022-03-29T14:30:25Z")
I don’t mean to hijack, but we’re coming close to the century anniversary of a “holy shit” moment in terms of scale. Prior to Hubble’s work in the early 1920s, it was thought that our galaxy was likely the whole universe (it wasn’t settled, but that was the main view). He showed that Andromeda was another galaxy, and since then we’ve seen another one or two galaxies. Another one or two _trillion_ that is. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/12 "2022-03-29T14:33:19Z")
The Greek philosophers were generally pretty comfortable with infinitely aged universes: > **[Apeiron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apeiron)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > Apeiron (/əˈpirɒn/; ἄπειρον) is a Greek word meaning "(that which is) unlimited," "boundless", "infinite", or "indefinite" from ἀ- a-, "without" and πεῖραρ peirar, "end, limit", "boundary", the Ionic Greek form of πέρας peras, "end, limit, boundary". > The apeiron is central to the cosmological theory created by Anaximander, a 6th-century BC pre-Socratic Greek philosopher whose work is mostly lost. From the few existing fragments, we learn that he... ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/13 "2022-03-29T14:36:51Z")
In Hindu cosmology the universe is 155 trillion years old. [https://www.cs.ubc.ca/~goyal/age\_of\_universe.php](https://www.cs.ubc.ca/~goyal/age_of_universe.php) ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/14 "2022-03-29T14:38:35Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Book recommendation time! i actually own a copy. Bored the bejeezus out of me, as I recall. Big fan of his PROFESSOR AND THE MADMAN, but I couldn’t get through that one. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/15 "2022-03-29T14:52:06Z")
It should be noted that even the early geologists didn’t get the age of the Earth right, or even close. They were mostly thinking in terms of tens or hundreds of millions of years. When meteorites were finally dated to about 4.5 billion years, there was another “holy shit” moment. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/16 "2022-03-29T14:52:42Z")
Yep. You can see the influence of that discovery in the works of Lovecraft (where mankind is an insignificant entity in an enormously vast and ancient universe) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/17 "2022-03-29T15:14:56Z")
Radiometric dating of Earth rocks gave an age of 2.2 billion years in 1907. [https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/do07ra.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/do07ra.html) (Of course, those same tests today would yeild a date of 2.200000115 billion years.) ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/18 "2022-03-29T19:52:33Z")
My machine says …11525. While there had been discoveries of ‘Antediluvian man’ - the evidence of humans from before Noah’s flood - made in the early 19th century, it was the scientific verification of flint artefacts in the Somme being found in unquestionable association with prehistoric animals that changed things forever. It happened to be in 1859 - the same year as _Origin of the Species_ was published. The verification followed up an earlier claim by Boucher de Perthes, who couldn’t quite make the argument and evidence gel convincingly, so John Evans and Jsoeph Prestwish [archaeologist and geologist] examined the site and produced an authoritative report confirming the find. I think it was a holy shit moment because, independent of Darwin, it gave humanity an antiquity with geological depth, so geological scale time processes like evolution could be considered as part of the human story. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/19 "2022-03-29T21:16:22Z")
Without the geologists deep time, Darwin could not have argued that there was enough time for evolution to have taken place. I assume that Hubble gave the first estimates of the age of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901/20 "2022-03-29T21:53:30Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > In Hindu cosmology the universe is 155 trillion years old. > > [Age of Universe according to Vedas](https://www.cs.ubc.ca/~goyal/age_of_universe.php) That’s one person’s interpretation of Hindu Vedas - not Cosmology. In the Vedas itself - there are many many open ended theories on the origin or the universe / timeline of evolution. > **[Hindu cosmology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology)** > > Hindu cosmology is the description of the universe and its states of matter, cycles within time, physical structure, and effects on living entities according to Hindu texts. Hindu cosmology is also intertwined with the idea of a creator who allows the world to exist and take shape. > All matter is based on three inert gunas (qualities or tendencies): > There are three states of the gunas that make up all matter in the universe: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-maybe-just-early-holy-shit-moment-in-evolutionary-timeline/961901.md?page=2)