# First names with apostrophes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 26, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817 "2001-10-26T17:52:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![achterover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@achterover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/achterover)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2001, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/21 "2001-10-28T03:08:22Z")
Because their parents were idiots who decided to sabotage their futures…My first year out of college I worked for my state guv’ment (hee!) in their daycare regulatory branch. I had to register all new children entering state-subsidized daycare centers – I’ve seen some first names with seven syllables…it’s scary. Also, a trend I HATE with young white couples – throwing a dart at a map of the Western US and naming the kid after that town/state. If I had seen one more Dakota (or D’Kotah), Cheyenne (or Shai-en), or Salt Lake City (ok, ok) I would have screamed. The only people naming their children Bob, Susan, James, or Margaret are Asian parents… ah, I love generalizing… ---
**Author:** ![galen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecc23a/32.png) [@galen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2001, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/22 "2001-10-28T03:17:32Z")
An affectation. Parents who do this have done their children a disservice. They will forever be explaining the apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![Niobium\_Knight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Niobium\_Knight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Niobium_Knight)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2001, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/23 "2001-10-28T05:03:39Z")
D’arcy ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2001, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/24 "2001-10-28T05:06:26Z")
**galen** : Or they will take the time to have their name legally changed. It isn’t like you have to show proof that you can juggle rabid hedgehogs while walking a tightrope over a pit of boiling rat sputum to get your name changed. At least, it doesn’t in Montana… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Wind\_Sorceress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@Wind\_Sorceress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wind_Sorceress)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2001, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/25 "2001-10-28T05:20:33Z")
if the name isn’t English, then assume that the apostrophe is to subsitute the glutral stop in that language. my real name is pinyin without the apostrophe, i should know how confusing it gets ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2001, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/26 "2001-10-28T08:18:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > **More well-known names like O’connor might be explained as coming from some variant such as “Of the Connor Family” which I could understand the shortening of.** Not a shortening at all. The original Irish, _Ó Conchobhair_, literally means “from [i.e. descended from] Conchobhar”. I’m not sure how the tradition started of anglicising these names by removing the fada (accent) from the _Ó_ and using it as an apostrophe instead, but one could argue that it’s technically just as incorrect as putting an apostrophe in Bob or Duane or Latonya. Of course, since it’s traditional now, not many people complain. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/27 "2001-10-28T17:07:33Z")
Does there remain a General Question on the table here? ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/28 "2001-10-31T04:24:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ariadne \* > Because of online roleplaying games, every time I see a name with an apostrophe in it I think of elves. Self-righteous, snobby, self-centered elves. I hate elves. Dragonriders. [sup]Does this prove that the answer to manny’s question is “Probably not”?[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/29 "2001-10-31T05:07:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by achterover \* > Also, a trend I HATE with young white couples – throwing a dart at a map of the Western US and naming the kid after that town/state. If I had seen one more Dakota (or D’Kotah), Cheyenne (or Shai-en), or Salt Lake City (ok, ok) I would have screamed. I thought that’s how they name pickup trucks and SUVs. Denali, Tacoma, Tahoe, Yukon, Durango… (OK, those last two are not technically in the US; I guess their darts must have gone a bit astray.) ---
**Author:** ![They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/They_Call_Me_Sneeze)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/30 "2001-10-31T06:28:08Z")
There is a Durango in Colorado, and I am pretty sure that’s how it’s spelled. It is really big on either trains or mountain biking. Right? I’m pretty sure, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Izzardesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a9adbd/32.png) [@Izzardesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izzardesque)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/31 "2001-10-31T11:41:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > > Not a shortening at all. The original Irish, _Ó Conchobhair_, literally means “from [i.e. descended from] Conchobhar”. I though the Irish used ‘Mac’, the same as the Scottish for this. If not, what is the difference betwee nthe ‘Mac’ used in Ireland and the ‘Mac’ used in Scotland?? ---
**Author:** ![Izzardesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a9adbd/32.png) [@Izzardesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izzardesque)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/32 "2001-10-31T11:42:48Z")
And if this is true (sorry, forgot to put this in my first post) why has the Welsh ‘ap’ dropped out of use when the Scottish and Irish versions haven’t? Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/33 "2001-10-31T12:23:51Z")
\*In Irish, _Ó_ means ‘grandson of’, therefore ‘descended from’, as **ruadh** already explained so well. The apostrophe must be a Sassenach substitute for the original acute accent (as in **whatmove** ’s example of Aube’ for Aubé above). I guess it shows clan affiliation. In Old Irish the word was spelled _aue_, and it comes from Proto-Indo-European \ ***awo-** meaning ‘an adult male relative other than one’s father’, the source of Latin _avus_ ‘grandfather’ \> atavism, _avunculus_ ‘maternal uncle’ \> avuncular, uncle. (Yes, our word _uncle_ derives via French _oncle_ from this Latin origin). The root has also been used to mean ‘older female relative’ too. For example, Latin _avia_ ‘grandmother’ \> ayah (a child’s nursemaid in former colonial Asia). This Indo-European root appears to be connected with similar words in many languages around the world, possibly derived from a Proto-World root \ ***AYA** ‘older female relative’: compare !Kung ’_ai_ ‘mother’; Somali _hooyo_ ‘mother’; Tamil _âyaL_ ‘mother’; Malay _ayah_ ‘father’; Nez Perce _ayat_ ‘grandmother’ Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic _mac_ means ‘son of’, used for the patronymic, as in the Arabic “ **ibn ‘Alî** ” (there’s an apostrophe for you, a left-handed one to show the pharyngeal **‘ayn** instead of a right-handed one to show the glottal stop hamzah [**’**]). The Gaelic word _mac_ ‘son’ may be derived from Proto-Indo-European \ ***magho-** ‘young; child, boy’. And it too appears to be related to a Proto-World reconstruction \ ***MAKO** ‘child’ — compare Old English _magu_ ‘child, son, man’; Tamil _maka_ ‘child, son’; Kannada _maga_ ‘son’; Bantu _manku, mongo_ ‘child’; Proto-Caucasian \*_mik_‘_w-_ ‘young one’; Proto-Tibeto-Burman _mak_ ‘son-in-law’; Papuan _mak_ ‘child’; Natick _mukketchouks_ ‘boy’; Beothuk _magaraguis_ ‘son’; Acoma _mage_ ‘girl’; Cayuse _m’oks_ ‘baby’; Modoc _mukak_ ‘girl’; Zuñi _maki_ ‘young woman’. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/34 "2001-10-31T12:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \ ***In Irish, _Ó_ means ‘grandson of’, therefore ‘descended from’, as ruadh already explained so well.** Actually, it literally just means “from”. Though in a name, it commonly came to be used as “grandson of”. The Welsh _ap_ used to be _map_, and you can see here why the Celtic languages are divided into P-Celtic (the Brythonic branch, which includes Welsh) and Q-Celtic (the Gaelic branch) - with “Q” here representing the k sound. _map_ and _mac_ are just two examples of how the old Celtic language evolved into these branches, with the former using a p sound where the latter would use a k. I’ve got a plane to catch, but I’m sure Jomo can elaborate on this point, if he’s so inclined. ---
**Author:** ![Izzardesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a9adbd/32.png) [@Izzardesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izzardesque)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/35 "2001-10-31T13:16:39Z")
Whoa, far too much information for me, Jomo Mojo!! And you missed out the origins of ‘ap’ but I guess ruadh did that for you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/36 "2001-10-31T13:59:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hombre \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > > \*\*Should we throw them over the foc’s’le? > > \*\* > > I’m really a boat guy, but can you throw someone _over_ the fo’c’s’le? \*\* Well, you can throw somebody over ANY part of a boat if you’re strong enough… I think B’ob should be pronounced “buh-obb”. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ariadne_ > Because of online roleplaying games, every time I see a name with an apostrophe in it I think of elves. Self-righteous, snobby, self-centered elves. I hate elves. Ariadne! My new hero! Tolkien fanatics will understand. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/37 "2001-10-31T15:44:18Z")
Getting back to the original question–I don’t think that this is supposed to be a glottal stop in these cases. I think this is an attempt to Frenchify or Spanishize an otherwise ordinary name, or synthesize a fake foreign name. Someone who doesn’t know either language would not know the rules for the apostrophe. I have seen the name L’Tanya (slightly different than the one that **Attrayant** gives). Now, someone who saw some French would see the “l’” construct a lot and think of that as a typical French prefix, and might think that you can just put that in front of stuff. But that someone would not realize that the apostrophe indicates a contraction, where the e or a was dropped from le or la when using it with a noun that begins with a vowel. This is a ridiculous extension of the common propensity to make up names. I guess the making up of new names is not new, although the first time I remember a case of it is when I saw Petula Clark on a TV show and she said her dad just made up her name. This was a very long time ago. :o ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/38 "2001-10-31T16:03:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > > \ ***In Irish, _Ó_ means ‘grandson of’, therefore ‘descended from’, as ruadh already explained so well.** > > Actually, it literally just means “from”. Though in a name, it commonly came to be used as “grandson of”.\*\* I never thought about this before, but if it just means “from” why is it commonly followed by the genitive? The word “ó” meaning “from” would not have a genitive. I think **Jomo Mojo** may be on to something here. However, it’s hard to explain why “Ó” doesn’t aspirate the following noun, while the female version “Ní” does. Sorry for perpetuating this hijack. ---
**Author:** ![jillamina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@jillamina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jillamina)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/39 "2001-10-31T17:41:30Z")
Why is creating a new name (or a new spelling or appearance of a name) “ridiculous” or “an affectation”? Where do our “normal” names come from? If you look at the list of common names in the appendix of Webster’s Collegiate Dicitonary, the majority of names are either from the Bible, or are derivations of (mostly Anglo) surnames. But what happens if you don’t want to name your son after an apostle or after that guy who brought your ancestors here in the first place? These new names are not embarrassments. They are an attempt to create a new naming tradition free of hundreds of years of white baggage. Maybe Tanya Harding isn’t someone I want to honor by carrying on her name, so instead I create a new name L’Tanya. Perhaps D’kotah is not named after North Dakota, but is named in honor of the Dakota people (and the only reason we spell it “dakota” is because that’s what the first white people to encounter them decided). It is easy to respond to this newness by spreading the urban legend of those poor, poor kids whose parents have burdened them with the names “Aquanetta” or “Siff’letta.” Or by saying that the parents are too ignorant/uneducated to know the proper uses of apostrophes in French and so their name creations turn out wrong. According to Merriam-Webster Online, name means “a word or phrase that constitutes the distinctive designation of a person or thing.” But more importantly, the definition does not include the phrase “and has been used before.” ---
**Author:** ![fandango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b5ac83/32.png) [@fandango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fandango)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817/40 "2001-10-31T19:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Izzardesque \* > \*\*And if this is true (sorry, forgot to put this in my first post) why has the Welsh ‘ap’ dropped out of use when the Scottish and Irish versions haven’t? Just a thought. \*\* In a lot of cases, the ‘a’ just got dropped and the ‘p’ was added to the first syllable i.e. : ap Rice --\> Price [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-names-with-apostrophes/89817.md?page=3)