# First same-sex marriage in Canadian military **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 15, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319 "2005-06-15T02:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/1 "2005-06-15T02:39:25Z")
As reported by the [Globe and Mail](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050614.wmilly0614/BNStory/Front/). ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/2 "2005-06-15T02:51:48Z")
Well, good for them. Not to take away from the joyous occasion, but I have a serious question. Do they have rules about fraternization? Down here fraternization is a punishable offense. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/3 "2005-06-15T03:14:19Z")
As **wolfstu** mentioned in the previous thread, there have been members of the Canadian Forces before who have married their same-sex partners; this is believed to be the first one to be carried out on a Forces base. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/4 "2005-06-15T03:19:34Z")
Actually, that’s a good question. I have no idea. I’m digging through the Canadian Forces’ site ( [http://www.forces.gc.ca/](http://www.forces.gc.ca/) ) but I haven’t seen anything so far. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/5 "2005-06-15T03:24:54Z")
Most likely, even if not exactly the same – there’s only so far you can bend chain-of-command discipline no matter what the army. But just as likely, they’re probably enforced about as affectively as ours are. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/6 "2005-06-15T03:37:22Z")
**matt** , which previous thread? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/7 "2005-06-15T04:39:44Z")
The pit thread about the ex-gay camp. More to the point, [here’s a link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4722114&highlight=soldier%2A+kingston#post4722114) to the thread I started about the previous wedding back in April 2004. (An Officer Cadet at the Royal Military College in Kingston eloped to Toronto with his fellow.) ---
**Author:** ![Tentacle\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@Tentacle\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tentacle_Monster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/8 "2005-06-15T05:01:24Z")
**Airman** : A Google search on ‘canadian military law fraternization’ returned [this document](http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5019/1_e.asp) Also, I did some checking on the UCMJ ([here](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/fraternization.htm) )and found this: > [@](#): > > Fraternization is a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). It falls under a subparagraph of Article 134, and is defined by the Manual For Courts-martial (MCM). According to the MCM, the “elements of proof” for the offense of fraternization are: > > ``` > (1) That the accused was a commissioned or warrant officer; > > (2) That the accused fraternized on terms of military equality with one or more certain enlisted member(s) in a certain manner; > > (3) That the accused then knew the person(s) to be (an) enlisted member(s); > > (4) That such fraternization violated the custom of the accused's service that officers shall not fraternize with enlisted members on terms of military equality; and > > **(5) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.** > > ``` (bolding mine) And this: > [@](#): > > In general. The gist of this offense is a violation of the custom of the armed forces against fraternization. Not all contact or association between officers and enlisted persons is an offense. Whether the contact or association in question is an offense depends on the surrounding circumstances. **Factors to be considered include whether the conduct has compromised the chain of command, resulted in the appearance of partiality, or otherwise undermined good order, discipline, authority, or morale.** The acts and circumstances must be such as to lead a reasonable person experienced in the problems of military leadership to conclude that the good order and discipline of the armed forces has been prejudiced by their tendency to compromise the respect of enlisted persons for the professionalism, integrity, and obligations of an officer. This indicates to me quite a bit of wiggle room. For example, if I as an Airman First Class started dating a Second Lieutentant who works in the hospital; I fail to see how it would compromise the chain of command, result in the appearance of partiality, or undermine good order, discipline, authority, or morale. Of course, I could be wrong. Military law, like any law, is all in the enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/9 "2005-06-15T13:12:12Z")
Congratulations to the couple. If fraternization is in fact illegal? Then I suppose that all of the couples I know within the Canadian military aren’t legal. ---
**Author:** ![Tentacle\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@Tentacle\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tentacle_Monster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/10 "2005-06-15T18:22:04Z")
**Ginger** : Technically, fraternization is only between officers and enlisted. There are prohibitions on relationships between enlisted and enlisted, but only if it causes problems. To give a real-life example: We recently got a married couple in our squadron. They got married in tech school. Nobody objected in tech school because they were in different classes, and they are in seperate shops here. No problems. The big problem with fraternization is if it causes problems in the workplace due to preferential treatment. It’s much like the civilian world: If word got out in the company you work for that you were screwing your boss, and you got promoted over someone else or let off the hook for a mistake; your co-workers would be less than thrilled. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/11 "2005-06-15T18:44:11Z")
> [@Globe & Mail](#): > > The two men, one a sergeant, the other a warrant officer, were married last month by a United Church minister because the base chaplain is Anglican and couldn’t officiate. I’m not too familiar with the ranks, but doesn’t that sound as if one is army and the other is navy, and both at about the same level? Maybe **RickJay** could come by and clarify the ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/12 "2005-06-15T19:12:35Z")
Party _on!_ ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/13 "2005-06-15T20:53:31Z")
**Northern Piper** , unless the media have misreported the ranks (which is always a fair possibility), both individuals are in the Army; a Warrant Officer in the Navy would be called a Petty Officer. Both individuals are NCOs: Non-Commissioned Officers, with possibly several grades of rank between them (article doesn’t specify what level of Warrant Officer the one man is). [http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Community/Insignia/arma\_e.htm](http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Community/Insignia/arma_e.htm) They’ve got a lot of challenges ahead; I wish them well. ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/14 "2005-06-15T20:56:02Z")
Oops! Meant to say that they could be Air Force or Army, as the rank structure is the same for both; Navy is the odd one out, retaining the “Petty Officer” title. As you were! ---
**Author:** ![Tentacle\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@Tentacle\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tentacle_Monster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/15 "2005-06-15T20:57:48Z")
**Northern Piper:** According to [this site](http://www.uniforminsignia.net/show.php?podkategorie=Army&stat=Canada&id=544), it looks like Warrant Officer and Sergeant are both enlisted ranks in the Canadian Army. “Petty Officer” is a rank in the navy. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/16 "2005-06-15T22:06:29Z")
The last unit I served in here in the US, the senior enlisted guy was married to the person who was, more or less, the second most senior enlisted person. There’s a lot of wiggle room. It was always my observation that it’s fraternization if you’re just dating and fooling around, but if you go and get hitched, the military tries to just deal with it. Anyway, this is too cool! So do these guys get all the same benefits a straight married couple gets? What about when a military member gets married to a civilian? Do they get the same benefits? Geez, compared to the US, this just seems like some surreal sci-fi story about the distant future. Go Canada! Huge smooches and hugs for each and every one of you! ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/17 "2005-06-15T23:27:02Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Anyway, this is too cool! So do these guys get all the same benefits a straight married couple gets? > > What about when a military member gets married to a civilian? Do they get the same benefits? Yes, and yes. One day, same-sex marriage will be referred to simply as ‘marriage’. That’s all it is in the eyes of the Canadian federal government. These guys are married to federal employees, and as such receive the same benefits and rights as are given to spouses of other federal employees. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/18 "2005-06-16T03:32:11Z")
Thanks for the clarification, **Rodd** and **Tentacle Monster**. > [@levdrakon](#): > > Geez, compared to the US, this just seems like some surreal sci-fi story about the distant future. psst - fellow Canucks - I don’t think we should tell our merkin buddies about our anti-grav sleds or death-rays just yet, right? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/first-same-sex-marriage-in-canadian-military/308319/19 "2005-06-16T04:19:38Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > I’m not too familiar with the ranks, but doesn’t that sound as if one is army and the other is navy, and both at about the same level? > > Maybe **RickJay** could come by and clarify the ranks. Warrant Officer is the Army and Air Force enlisted rank above Sergeant. It goes Private, Corporal, Master Corporal, Sergeant, Warrant Officer, Master Warrant Officer, Chief Warrant Officer. Then you get into commissioned officers.