# FISA warrant was used to spy on the Trump campaign and presidency **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242 "2019-12-22T17:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/1 "2019-12-22T17:01:32Z")
The FISA warrant obtained to spy on Carter Page allowed the FBI to spy on not only Carter Page but also people that Carter Page communicated with in addition to people that communicated with people that communicated with Carter Page. This means that the FISA warrant can be used to look into Steve Bannon’s communications prior to the date he had contact with Carter Page and also anyone that Steve Bannon was in contact with which would include Trump. [FISA’s license to hop](https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/256333/fisas-license-to-hop) > [@](#): > > In the case of a subject like Carter Page, that means investigators who obtain a warrant in October 2016 can hunt through his communications going back several years before that date—and can use their “license to hop” to probe the first and second order of correspondents linked to him at any point during that period in the same fashion. (As mentioned at links above—here and here—analysts working national-security surveillance without a targeted warrant can routinely go back for an 18-month haul.) Links from the past can then be exploited going forward. > > What this means in practice is that, under a single warrant, anyone Page had a text or phone call with in the Trump campaign during the brief months of his association with it in 2016, was fair game, as a direct connection, all the way through the end of the last warrant-extension period on Page in October 2017. The second-hop connections of those initial contacts—meaning everyone that those people had contact with—are also fair game. In other words, it’s likely that almost everyone on the Trump campaign staff was included in the universe of first- and second-order contacts of Carter Page. The entirety of their correspondence is therefore also covered by the initial warrant, regardless of whether or not they ever met or corresponded with Carter Page, or whether that correspondence referred to him in any way, directly or indirectly. > > We got a glimpse of that reality from the recent report that Carter Page was in contact with Trump adviser Steve Bannon in January 2017, which could have allowed the FBI to look further into Bannon’s communications through October 2017. But it also allowed a probe of Bannon’s communications going back years before January 2017—as well as a probe of anyone Bannon was in contact with throughout that same period. [FBI surveillance of Carter Page might have picked up Bannon](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/08/carter-page-steve-bannon-fbi-communications-398992) > [@](#): > > The FBI was monitoring Carter Page when the former Trump campaign adviser says he spoke with Trump adviser Steve Bannon about Russia in January 2017, raising the strong possibility that the FBI intercepted a conversation between the two men. > > Page told Congress in November about the call. But it has been cast into a new light by last week’s release of a Republican memo revealing that the FBI was monitoring Page’s communications at the time. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/2 "2019-12-22T17:12:53Z")
o/` To dreeeeeeeeam the impossible dreaaaaaaam! To fight the unbeatable foooooooe! o/` ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/3 "2019-12-22T17:19:13Z")
o/` How do you solve a problem like Easy Phil? How do you stop beating a dead horse? o/` ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/4 "2019-12-22T17:20:40Z")
Crazy man!!! ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/5 "2019-12-22T17:29:41Z")
Sheesh, can’t a campaign communicate over 100 times with a foreign adversary while it’s actively engaged in cyber warfare anymore without people getting all “why?” [https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-russia-government-contact-timeline-2018-7](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-russia-government-contact-timeline-2018-7) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/6 "2019-12-22T17:30:27Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The FISA warrant obtained to spy on Carter Page allowed the FBI to spy on not only Carter Page but also people that Carter Page communicated with in addition to people that communicated with people that communicated with Carter Page. This means that the FISA warrant can be used to look into Steve Bannon’s communications prior to the date he had contact with Carter Page and also anyone that Steve Bannon was in contact with which would include Trump. > > [FISA’s license to hop](https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/256333/fisas-license-to-hop) > > [FBI surveillance of Carter Page might have picked up Bannon](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/08/carter-page-steve-bannon-fbi-communications-398992) So. Fucking. What. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/7 "2019-12-22T17:41:10Z")
When the Patriot Act was first passed I shuddered and was saddened we had gotten to this point. We were trading a false sense of security for a whole lot less privacy. Just based on your stances on everything else, I would guess you viewed the Patriot Act as a good thing. A great thing, maybe. One that would help protect us against further foreign attacks. If you view what happened with the Trump campaign as some sort of abuse of power that the process gives the government, are you now rethinking all this “security” we handed over to the government, or are you simply thinking the freedom it gives the overlords is okay as long as it is only the Rs using it to piss on the Ds? You can’t have it both ways. Are you for or against the Patriot Act and the freedom it gives the government to do these types of things? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/8 "2019-12-22T17:49:22Z")
From what I gather, these “hops” provide call data - who they called, and when. Which is to say, they are not listening in on conversations. Is that correct? > **[NSA: Three Hops and You're Out](https://nationalinterest.org/commentary/nsa-three-hops-youre-out-8766)** > > New revelations about digital data collection continue to surprise, but secrecy leaves many questions unanswered. > [@](#): > > Deputy Attorney General James M. Cole was the latest to assure us that the collected information does “not include names or other personal identifying information” and does not include the content of any phone calls… > Additionally, the intelligence community insists that there’s a vast difference between simply collecting information and accessing it. Indeed, they point out that they’re legally prohibited from intentionally accessing the records of domestic calls made by US citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/9 "2019-12-22T19:16:52Z")
Is the OP’s issue with the “hopping” or that it led to the Trump campaign? If the former, than make a more specific comment on law-enforcement overreach. If the latter, then explain why the Trump campaign specifically needed extra protection that other groups would implicitly not get. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/10 "2019-12-22T20:10:57Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > When the Patriot Act was first passed I shuddered and was saddened we had gotten to this point. We were trading a false sense of security for a whole lot less privacy. Just based on your stances on everything else, I would guess you viewed the Patriot Act as a good thing. A great thing, maybe. One that would help protect us against further foreign attacks. > > If you view what happened with the Trump campaign as some sort of abuse of power that the process gives the government, are you now rethinking all this “security” we handed over to the government, or are you simply thinking the freedom it gives the overlords is okay as long as it is only the Rs using it to piss on the Ds? > > You can’t have it both ways. Are you for or against the Patriot Act and the freedom it gives the government to do these types of things? I’m assuming this is directed at me… Your argument assumes you know my position on the Patriot Act which you do not. Why are you making these assumptions? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/11 "2019-12-22T20:17:44Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > I’m assuming this is directed at me… > > Your argument assumes you know my position on the Patriot Act which you do not. Why are you making these assumptions? What IS your position? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/12 "2019-12-22T20:28:50Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > I’m assuming this is directed at me… > > Your argument assumes you know my position on the Patriot Act which you do not. Why are you making these assumptions? This is why > [@snfaulkner](#): > > What IS your position? We don’t know your positions. What exactly did you want to talk about? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/13 "2019-12-22T20:30:29Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > From what I gather, these “hops” provide call data - who they called, and when. Which is to say, they are not listening in on conversations. Is that correct? > > [NSA: Three Hops and You're Out | The National Interest](https://nationalinterest.org/commentary/nsa-three-hops-youre-out-8766) [Warrantless Surveillance Under Section 702 of FISA](https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/privacy-and-surveillance/warrantless-surveillance-under-section-702-fisa) > [@](#): > > Once the government collects vast amounts of information — including emails, text messages and other communications — under Section 702, that content is stored in databases for years at a time. FBI, CIA, and NSA officials routinely search through this vast trove of data for information specifically about Americans, even though these communications were all collected without a warrant. Information found through these “backdoor searches” can be used to prosecute Americans for crimes, even if they are not related to national security. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/14 "2019-12-22T20:42:09Z")
The warrant was used to get information on the Trump campaign. That’s the purpose of warrants. It was not used to spy on the Trump campaign. I’m curious whether you understand the difference. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/15 "2019-12-22T20:48:32Z")
Didn’t I see a couple of threads on this just recently or is that just my imagination? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/16 "2019-12-22T20:48:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The warrant was used to get information on the Trump campaign. That’s the purpose of warrants. It was not used to spy on the Trump campaign. I’m curious whether you understand the difference. According to AG Barr, this is spying. [NY Times Link](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/us/politics/william-barr-jeffrey-rosen-hearings.html) > [@](#): > > “I think spying on a political campaign is a big deal,” Mr. Barr said, adding that he believed “spying did occur.” Mr. Trump and his allies have accused the F.B.I. and other government officials of abusing their power and cooking up the Russia investigation to sabotage the president. > > “I am not suggesting that those rules were violated, but I think it’s important to look at them,” Mr. Barr said. Later he said he wanted to ensure that there was no “improper surveillance” — not suggesting there had been, but that the possibility warranted review. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/17 "2019-12-22T20:50:09Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > Didn’t I see a couple of threads on this just recently or is that just my imagination? Post a link to one. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/18 "2019-12-22T21:02:34Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > According to AG Barr, this is spying . . . Well there’s your problem right there. Barr is Trump’s ass-licking toady. He’ll say anything to make that ass happy. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/19 "2019-12-22T21:03:16Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > According to AG Barr, this is spying. > > [NY Times Link](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/us/politics/william-barr-jeffrey-rosen-hearings.html) That’s just a blatant appeal to authority, tho. Besides, Barr’s opinion is only notable because it is different from the vast majority of people. So that’s not a very good appeal to authority since he’s in the (serious) minority of people holding that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242/20 "2019-12-22T21:18:37Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > According to AG Barr, this is spying. > > [NY Times Link](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/us/politics/william-barr-jeffrey-rosen-hearings.html) Barr has zero credibility. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fisa-warrant-was-used-to-spy-on-the-trump-campaign-and-presidency/845242.md?page=2)