# Fist Fights are Good For Society **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 15, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568 "2010-05-15T19:33:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/61 "2010-05-16T19:00:17Z")
Yes. If we had let fear overtake us back in the days when we only had pointy sticks to defend us from predators, we would never have left the caves. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/62 "2010-05-16T20:22:08Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I think it’s a bit odd that so many people are saying that physical violence is completely abhorrent and childish, but from what I’ve seen on these boards, US Americans are all about their guns. So, up close and personal violence is bad, but shooting someone from further away is okay? Yep, as I’ve said before, the US has become a nation of pussies. Threatening people from a distance is our preferred method of dealing with things. Guns for regular citizens and Predators for our military. I’m with Acid Lamp on this one. A good and fair fist fight can solve a lot of problems. ---
**Author:** ![Picard\_Kills\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Picard\_Kills\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Picard_Kills_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/63 "2010-05-16T23:29:25Z")
Consider the other side of this though. Let’s say I’m in McDonalds, and I mention to my friend how bad their fish fillet sandwich is. Strangely enough, Ronald McDonald is standing in line behind me and overhears what I say about his sandwich. Now he is pissed, and he and the hamburgular think I’m a jerk. After all, I am in their restaurant. They decide to wait for me outside, and beat the crap out of me for being such a jerk. My point is, where do you draw the line on being able to beat someone up for being a jerk. What if half the restaurant agrees with me, and the other half is against me. Now we’ve got a 20 person fight going on in the parking lot. Or, if I am that bothersome, the manager could have just told me to leave in the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/64 "2010-05-17T00:08:52Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > I’ve heard this idea about “the threat of potential violence makes us more civil” before. It made no sense then, and it makes no sense now. The constant threat of physical violence due to offending someone is the opposite of civility, by definition. Do you have a counter-theory then? Or do you disagree with the premise that our society has become generally less civil? ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/65 "2010-05-17T00:13:56Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I don’t need one. This is MPSIMS, not Great Debates. You need one if you want to convince anyone that people acted less abhorrent 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/66 "2010-05-17T00:14:02Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I think any society where you’re only “in line” out of fear is a horrifying one. Indeed. But civility itself–whatever its genesis–breeds more civility, and incivility incivility, if it is not checked. So it’s not as if everyone was constantly regulating their behavior _only_ for fear. For that matter, it need not even be a matter of “fear,” but simply reluctance to value the motive for incivility above the consequences of same, if you follow me. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/67 "2010-05-17T02:43:32Z")
Question for Acid Lamp et al. Is it okay for men to hit women in your hypothetical world? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/68 "2010-05-17T02:48:38Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Indeed. But civility itself–whatever its genesis–breeds more civility, and incivility incivility, if it is not checked. So it’s not as if everyone was constantly regulating their behavior _only_ for fear. For that matter, it need not even be a matter of “fear,” but simply reluctance to value the motive for incivility above the consequences of same, if you follow me. Sure, but why can’t they do that without violence? I mean, I think for the most part people _are_ pretty polite today. And is there any evidence that they were more polite back then or even that you could get a punch in the nose for being rude? I’ve never really heard of that and so far the people who were around back then don’t think it happened either. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/69 "2010-05-17T02:58:00Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Is it okay for men to hit women in your hypothetical world? In some lines, there is no difference between male and female. For example, when I worked Security. If you ignore or dismiss the potential for a woman to hit you, and the need to defend yourself just as well as you would against a man, you’re a fucking moron. Tell me, is it ok for women to hit men in your world? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/70 "2010-05-17T03:02:39Z")
So, wait. The OP thinks that society today is a bunch of pussies, because we let consequences like getting arrested deter us from unfriendly activities like fistfighting. But fistfighting in turn is good, because the consequence of a fight deters us from unfriendly activities like name-calling. I’m seeing a bit of a disconnect, here. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/71 "2010-05-17T03:15:16Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I don’t like guns either. I’m not sure if it was here or somewhere else where I read something about people being more polite in the time of duels because if you got out of line and someone demanded satisfaction, you could very well end up shot. I think any society where you’re only “in line” out of fear is a horrifying one. I doubt it, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, duelling wasn’t actually _that_ common. Traditionally, duels were also fought with rapiers and swords, often to “First Blood” or “Submission” rather than to the death. Handguns were introduced later, and until the 19th Century weren’t especially accurate. Traditonally in a pistol duel, You generally got one shot each, and if you both missed, then the matter was declared resolved and that was supposed to be the end of it. In theory. Also, duels were traditionally fought by members of the gentry or monied classes- commoners were expected to settle their differences with fisticuffs if the felt they’d been greviously insulted in some way. And more importantly, generally a member of the upper classes didn’t challenge a commoner to a duel- they just gave them a jolly good seeing-to with a walking cane or riding crop or whatever for their impudence. Point is, the idea of “Duelling” as a way of keeping people’s manners in line has more to do with 19th Century Romanticism and less to do with actually stopping people from being dicks. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/72 "2010-05-17T03:17:11Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > In some lines, there is no difference between male and female. For example, when I worked Security. If you ignore or dismiss the potential for a woman to hit you, and the need to defend yourself just as well as you would against a man, you’re a fucking moron. > > Tell me, is it ok for women to hit men in your world? In some lines, yeah, but we’re talking in this thread about fist fighting to make sure people don’t behave rudely. If you saw a woman, being insulting or something, is it OK to smack her? Punch her? What? Plus, again, the problem is what is “rude”? If you’re hitting on a woman and she ignores you, is that rude? What if you think she’s being bitchy and she thinks that you’re just being creepy? Is she allowed to hit you? That’s why I think that it’s just easier NOT to get physical, physical. Unless someone’s threatening you physically and it’s self defense, just use your words. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/73 "2010-05-17T03:22:23Z")
Let’s not forget the great tradition of putting women over our knees and spanking them. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/74 "2010-05-17T03:34:08Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > And is there any evidence that they were more polite back then or even that you could get a punch in the nose for being rude? I’ve never really heard of that and so far the people who were around back then don’t think it happened either. I’m not sure which “back when” we’re talking about here. I’ve _seen_ it happen; I just agree with the OP that it seems like a declining trend, and incivility of various kinds a rising one. But consider the idea of “fighting words.” Now, as a very strong advocate of free speech, I **do not** subscribe to the idea that such speech should be criminalized. But legalities aside, there remains the idea that it is possible to initiate a violent confrontation only with words–that there are things you might say to a man which he _should not_ be reasonably expected to disregard. I can’t see how such a concept, sufficiently widely-understood to sometimes be enshrined in law, could have arisen _except_ in a context where people occasionally got slugged for truly egregious rudeness. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/75 "2010-05-17T03:49:50Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > If you saw a woman, being insulting or something, is it OK to smack her? Well, I’ve seen women deliberately act in ways that they and everyone else in the room knew would result in a serious ass whooping if they were male, and rub men’s faces in it that they couldn’t be touched because they were woman. All I can say is that Karma is a bitch and I don’t have any sympathy against the day that someone does hand those women their asses. I just hope that it is another woman who does it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/76 "2010-05-17T04:13:33Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I’m not sure which “back when” we’re talking about here. I’ve _seen_ it happen; I just agree with the OP that it seems like a declining trend, and incivility of various kinds a rising one. > > But consider the idea of “fighting words.” Now, as a very strong advocate of free speech, I **do not** subscribe to the idea that such speech should be criminalized. But legalities aside, there remains the idea that it is possible to initiate a violent confrontation only with words–that there are things you might say to a man which he _should not_ be reasonably expected to disregard. > > I can’t see how such a concept, sufficiently widely-understood to sometimes be enshrined in law, could have arisen _except_ in a context where people occasionally got slugged for truly egregious rudeness. While I agree with your interpretation, of ‘fighting words’, there are plenty of cultural traditions that haven’t survived , and so we know they are not necessarily permanent. Society doesn’t put up with duels, lynchings, and … God knows how many other things we don’t do any more. Personally I would prefer a less violent society rather than a less civil society. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/77 "2010-05-17T04:31:19Z")
Here’s how I see it. In every society, there will be bullies. If it is socially acceptable to have fistfights and get away with it, then bullies will beat people up regularly and get away with it. I don’t like that idea. > [@Chimera](#): > > In some lines, there is no difference between male and female. For example, when I worked Security. If you ignore or dismiss the potential for a woman to hit you, and the need to defend yourself just as well as you would against a man, you’re a fucking moron. > > Tell me, is it ok for women to hit men in your world? Nope. But it’s also not okay for women to hit women, or men to hit men, or men to hit women. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/78 "2010-05-17T04:32:25Z")
Striking or shooting another in self defense, the defense of another, or the performance of public duty is sometimes necessary. Ego fights are never necessary, and are just a bad freakin’ idea all around. A few scenarios: 1. An asshole starts shit with you. You decide to teach him a lesson. However, the reason he is an asshole is because he is a psychopath, and he stabs you in the throat because he has no conscience, no foresight, and extremely poor impulse control. Just like guns should always be assumed to be loaded, assholes should always be assumed to be armed. Every fight is a knife fight - you just haven’t seen the knife yet. “He fought fair” isn’t a compliment, it’s an epitath. 2. An asshole starts shit with you. You decide to teach him a lesson. You knock his asshole ass out. As he hits the ground, he strikes the concrete curb with his neck and the concrete sidewalk with the back of his head, causing spinal cord injury and cerebral trauma. Doctors say he could suffer permanent paralysis if he ever comes out of his coma. You are charged with felony aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, to wit: your fist and/or the ground. You hope he does not die, because you then will be charged with homicide. 3. An asshole starts shit with you. You decide to teach him a lesson. You knock his asshole ass out. He’s not permanently injured, but he is lying at your feet unconscious and bleeding from a broken nose and jaw, and you have a boxer’s fracture in your hand. You surprisingly do not feel one bit better. You actually feel pretty shitty. 4. Same as #3, except his asshole friend coldcocks you in the back of the head with a tire iron. These are all examples from real incidents. Will they happen to you? Probably not, but you probably won’t die or get maimed if you speed without a seatbelt or get burned alive if you don’t use a smoke detector, either. Why risk it? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/79 "2010-05-17T04:37:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Personally I would prefer a less violent society rather than a less civil society. And our society now is much less violent? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/80 "2010-05-17T04:44:29Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > And our society now is much less violent? There’s certainly fewer passing ruffians going around saying “Ni!” at will to old ladies, FWIW. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568.md?page=5)