# Fist Fights are Good For Society **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 15, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568 "2010-05-15T19:33:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/81 "2010-05-17T04:49:54Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I think it’s a bit odd that so many people are saying that physical violence is completely abhorrent and childish, but from what I’ve seen on these boards, US Americans are all about their guns. So, up close and personal violence is bad, but shooting someone from further away is okay? I believe the reasoning is that the mere presence of the gun is a deterrent. If someone knows that you have the capacity to kill them or otherwise severely injure them if they attack you, they won’t attack. I sincerely doubt that there are people who abhor fistfights who also see nothing wrong with a little shootout among friends. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/82 "2010-05-17T05:05:14Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > And our society now is much less violent? Er, compared to a society that has fistfights all the time, yes. > [@pravnik](#): > > These are all examples from real incidents. Will they happen to you? Probably not, but you probably won’t die or get maimed if you speed without a seatbelt or get burned alive if you don’t use a smoke detector, either. Why risk it? 1. An asshole starts shit with you, and you decide to teach him a lesson. Only it turns out that he wasn’t actually starting shit, you just misunderstood him. He doesn’t get a chance to explain this to you before you knock him out. Then passerbys explain it, and you feel like a total shit. You flee, because when he wakes up he’ll probably pick a fight with you for beating him up for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/83 "2010-05-17T05:10:08Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > And our society now is much less violent? It is certainly less violent than it would be under the OPs scheme, which would have people beating on each other over insults. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/84 "2010-05-17T05:40:13Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Er, compared to a society that has fistfights all the time, yes. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > It is certainly less violent than it would be under the OPs scheme, which would have people beating on each other over insults. Hmm. I _thought_ that was more of a rhetorical question. Look around! Read the news! This country is very violent today, and it’s much worse than fistfights. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/85 "2010-05-17T05:45:15Z")
But is it more or less violent than it used to be? And is it more or less violent than it would be if fistfights were more accepted? I have no idea the answer to the first question, but I’d guess that it’s less violent with regards to the second. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/86 "2010-05-17T05:59:16Z")
> [@Cat Whisperer](#): > > I think it’s a bit odd that so many people are saying that physical violence is completely abhorrent and childish, but from what I’ve seen on these boards, US Americans are all about their guns. So, up close and personal violence is bad, but shooting someone from further away is okay? I suspect that a lot of people here have either never been in a fight or have mostly been on the receiving end of schoolyard bullying. So for someone like that, physical violence is not really a viable option as they are unlikely to be on the side that reaps the benefit. The thread is timely as I was just involved in a minor physical altercation last night. My opinion on the matter is that fist fights are only “good for society” such that being able to defend youself or otherwise stand up to bullies is good for society. But really the only “disagreement” it resolves is which drunken idiot is the bigger asshole. And even if I win, ultimately it ruins my night anyway and puts me in a foul mood for several days. Like any skill, the better that one gets at it, the more likely one comes to rely on it. At what point do you go from defending yourself to becoming a jerk who who picks fights at the slightest provocation? Here is the question I would pose to the OP. Do you think fistfights are necessary because you don’t like how people are acting/speaking or because you disagree with what they are saying? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/87 "2010-05-17T06:00:51Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Hmm. I _thought_ that was more of a rhetorical question. Look around! Read the news! This country is very violent today, and it’s much worse than fistfights. Two things: Firstly, I disagree with your premise that this country is more violent in today’s times than it used to be. (I refer you to the [violent crime graph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violent_crime_rates_1973-2005.jpg).) Secondly, I disagree with the idea that adding widespread, institutionalized violence will make society less violent. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/88 "2010-05-17T06:13:23Z")
> [@](#): > > The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization. – Sigmund Freud ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/89 "2010-05-17T06:21:12Z")
“Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” –Isaac Asimov “Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.” –Robert A. Heinlein Now…FIGHT!!! ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/90 "2010-05-17T06:33:49Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > I refer you to the [violent crime graph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violent_crime_rates_1973-2005.jpg). Well, I’d like to see the actual data and know exactly what they’re calling “victimizations.” Moreover, I’d like to see the data going back several more decades, at least. And a geographic breakout might be interesting too. But there sure seem to be a lot more mass shootings than there used to be, no? I reckon the graph doesn’t take into account the general terrorization of society by spectacular crimes. > [@pedescribe](#): > > I disagree with the idea that adding widespread, institutionalized violence will make society less violent. We’re not talking about institutionalized violence. > [@msmith537](#): > > I suspect that a lot of people here have either never been in a fight or have mostly been on the receiving end of schoolyard bullying. So for someone like that, physical violence is not really a viable option as they are unlikely to be on the side that reaps the benefit. The OP argument, as I understood it and have been more-or-less supporting, is that the benefit is _general_. The pressure on certain individuals to moderate their behavior–as a consequence of, or to avoid, a fight–leads not only to those individuals behaving better towards others _generally_, but in turn the improved civility among those supports others being more civil. You need not _ever_ participate in a fight, or even risk one, to benefit. So the hypothesis goes. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/91 "2010-05-17T06:42:12Z")
Here’s [another graph](http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/graphs/10.htm), for example. ---
**Author:** ![Claude\_Remains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/92 "2010-05-17T07:32:19Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Then you may lose. Fighting isn’t necessarily about who is right or wrong. More often it’s about asserting yourself in a manner that makes you _not worth bothering_. Last Friday night a friend of a friend was asking about my kid. It turned into “I don’t wanna bang her, I just wanna see what she looks like” After my buds telling him to chill, he unleashed the “c” word. I clocked him backwards out of his (my) patio chair. He said he was gonna come back and shoot me. Crickets chirp. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/93 "2010-05-17T15:36:58Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” > –Isaac Asimov > “Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any > other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. > Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it > with their lives and freedoms.” > > –Robert A. Heinlein > > Now…FIGHT!!! The only problem with Heinlein’s statement is that violence alone almost never truly “settles” issues. It may seem to for a time, but inevitably issues settled solely by violence bubble to the surface again in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/94 "2010-05-17T15:54:49Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > But there sure seem to be a lot more mass shootings than there used to be, no? I reckon the graph doesn’t take into account the general terrorization of society by spectacular crimes. And you are assuming that regular fistfights would decrease mass shootings. I disagree. And furthermore, we can back-and forth spectacular incidents all day long. For every Seung-Hui Cho you can cite, I can rebut with an Ed Gein. > [@](#): > > We’re not talking about institutionalized violence. The point still stands. > [@](#): > > The OP argument, as I understood it and have been more-or-less supporting, is that the benefit is _general_. The pressure on certain individuals to moderate their behavior–as a consequence of, or to avoid, a fight–leads not only to those individuals behaving better towards others _generally_, but in turn the improved civility among those supports others being more civil. > > You need not _ever_ participate in a fight, or even risk one, to benefit. So the hypothesis goes. But that’s a flawed hypothesis. If fistfights are socially acceptable, I’m risking getting in one every day, just by going outside and interacting with society. And no, I’m not a raging asshole, but other people could misinterpret my actions, or they could just be looking for a fight and see me as a target, and then I’m bleeding and bruised and that’s no fun. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/95 "2010-05-17T16:01:16Z")
Myth Challenge: I’ve been in fist-fights. Not many, and not for quite a while now, but I can count on one unicorn hoof the number of times I shook hands with the guy afterward and went out for beers. The fist-fights I’ve been in were because the other guy and I didn’t like each other for whatever reason. Punching each other in the face, oddly, did not generate any common ground over which to bond. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/96 "2010-05-17T16:18:46Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Here’s [another graph](http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/graphs/10.htm), for example. That graph ends at 1990! How is _that_ a useful metric on today, 20 years later?! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/97 "2010-05-17T16:34:30Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’d just like to say that I find the idea of an adult male never having had a fight to be a bit dubious. Who are these people - some kind of wimps who avoided every physical confrontation they were faced with? There are only two times I’ve ever been involved in anything even resembling a fight: 1.) Middle school. Another kid had been making fun of me all year. I lost my temper and threw a punch. Not a very effective punch - kid seemed more surprised than anything, and didn’t retaliate. Frankly, I’m kind of embarassed I did that. 2.) College. I was at a party, standing behind a friend who was making an ass of himself. The host tried to shove him out of the door, and ended up shoving me as well, accidentally. The fellow apologized, and I accepted - my friend really _had_ been an ass, and I’d just been in the wrong place, wrong time. It happens. Other than those incidents, I’ve never backed down from a physical confrontation, because I’ve never _been_ in one. Why would I be? I’m polite, soft-spoken, and I don’t become belligerant when drunk. I’ve never had to go to any effort to avoid a fight, because I’ve never been (with the above exceptions) even within spitting distance of one. I suspect most men are like me - are we all wimps, then? Shall I head out to the pub and slug somebody in order to prove my manhood to all and sundry? ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/98 "2010-05-17T16:45:20Z")
Acid Lamp i think you are giving Law Enforcement the short shrift here… There are quite a few cops who will listen to whats happened and ascertain that you were standing up for a lady being threatened. This sentiments is a nice THOUGHT… but it reminds me of another thread in which the OP was encouraged to physically attack/defend a probably bigger stronger man. Most people haven’t had a “fight” in years… if ever…its an exhausting struggle… when we make recruits fight what you find is 3minutes in they are tired beyond belief… Fighting is an art… its not something someone can just pull out of their ass whenever the time seems right. In most cases its probably better if that aforementioned guy calls the police because unless he’s primed ready and skilled for it he might get himself killed. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/99 "2010-05-17T17:58:15Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > The only problem with Heinlein’s statement is that violence alone almost never truly “settles” issues. It may seem to for a time, but inevitably issues settled solely by violence bubble to the surface again in different ways. Or ecactly the same way. WWI possibly settled the start date of WWII, and that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/100 "2010-05-17T18:21:50Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Not necessarily as a way of resolving differences. I see the underlying thing as “the possible threat of violence, however small, keeps things more civil”. This is why fighting is “allowed” in hockey games. And it works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568.md?page=6)