# Fist Fights are Good For Society **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 15, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568 "2010-05-15T19:33:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/101 "2010-05-17T18:36:46Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I’m not sure which “back when” we’re talking about here. I’ve _seen_ it happen; I just agree with the OP that it seems like a declining trend, and incivility of various kinds a rising one. > > But consider the idea of “fighting words.” Now, as a very strong advocate of free speech, I **do not** subscribe to the idea that such speech should be criminalized. But legalities aside, there remains the idea that it is possible to initiate a violent confrontation only with words–that there are things you might say to a man which he _should not_ be reasonably expected to disregard. > > I can’t see how such a concept, sufficiently widely-understood to sometimes be enshrined in law, could have arisen _except_ in a context where people occasionally got slugged for truly egregious rudeness. There are those things, but I just don’t think that we should condone it. We can say that we can see that someone was provoked, but that it’s still not OK. When you say you’ve seen it happen–you mean you’ve seen the time of time/place where it was OK to throw a punch to establish civility and that that worked? Or…what? > [@Chimera](#): > > Well, I’ve seen women deliberately act in ways that they and everyone else in the room knew would result in a serious ass whooping if they were male, and rub men’s faces in it that they couldn’t be touched because they were woman. All I can say is that Karma is a bitch and I don’t have any sympathy against the day that someone does hand those women their asses. I just hope that it is another woman who does it. Can you define what kind of behavior that is? I honestly am not sure I’ve ever seen anyone act in a way that “should” result in an ass whooping–male OR female. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/102 "2010-05-17T18:38:23Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” > –Isaac Asimov > “Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any > other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. > Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it > with their lives and freedoms.” > > –Robert A. Heinlein > > Now…FIGHT!!! I fail to see a contradiction between the two statements. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. The competent use it when appropriate. Not as a last refuge. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/103 "2010-05-17T18:59:16Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I fail to see a contradiction between the two statements. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. The competent use it when appropriate. Not as a last refuge. The first quote, in context, clearly isn’t meant the way you interpret it here. It basically means that if you’re resorting to violence, then you fucked up somewhere along the way (even if, now, it is in fact your best option). ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/104 "2010-05-17T19:45:22Z")
Well, it is Salvador Hardin saying it, and not Isaac Asimov. That being said, the context it was in, was in regards to permanent solutions, over a thousand years. Compared to that, we are all incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/105 "2010-05-17T20:14:53Z")
> [@Picard\_Kills\_Kirk](#): > > Mary and/or her parents will eventually find someone in the school system who can deal with Alice. Yeah, eventually, like after Mary has [suffered deeply and killed herself](http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/03/30/da_charges_9_teens_faults_school_officials_in_s_hadley_bullying_case/). No offense, but for at least some situations, you’re dreaming. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/106 "2010-05-17T20:19:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Maybe. And I’m just talking out my rear end here, but I see so many stories about people being beaten to death or seriously injured due to squabbles that it takes me back to my youth. > > Back in the day, if two males had a disagreement, then we had it out in the alley/off campus/after work. We beat on each other (or at least tried) and more times than not we shook hands and moved on with our lives. > > If you do that today you will be arrested for assault and/or battery and could possibly be fired from your job even for suggesting such a solution. > > So the tension builds and builds until a deadly weapon or a horrific fight comes about, people go to jail and the tension remains. > > Were we right in the good old days? You know…you are pissing me off. Meet you behind the powerhouse after school. You better be there to! ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/107 "2010-05-17T20:24:32Z")
I’m a probation officer, and I deal with a lot of assault and battery cases. The OP sounds exactly like the shit I hear every day. Someone was a jerk to me, therefore I have the right to beat the shit out of them. They always say “What was I supposed to do? He was looking at my girlfriend!” or “What was I supposed to do? He called me X!” Then the speech about how “I just want respect! He was disrespecting me!” It’s a sick kind of thinking. Here’s what you’re supposed to do, **jtgain**. You’re supposed to walk away. They’re just words. They can’t hurt you. Anger management programs have come a long way in the last 10 years **jtgain**. I suggest you look into one. Most of the people I send to them tell me they enjoyed it, and their relationships all improve. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/108 "2010-05-17T22:09:35Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Yes. An excellent rejoinder to my OP.. > > In other words, you had more respect towards someone because if you crossed a certain line, then fisticuffs would ensue Wasn’t it Robert Heinlein who used to say that “an armed society is a polite society”? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/109 "2010-05-17T22:41:30Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > “What was I supposed to do? He was looking at my girlfriend!” or “What was I supposed to do? He called me X!” Then the speech about how “I just want respect! He was disrespecting me!” What are you supposed to do? Be less of a pussy. If someone looking at your girlfriend or calling you a name hurts your feelings to the point that you want to beat his ass, then you’re a weak assed bitch who will spend his life feeling ‘disrespected’ by everything the world throws at you. You don’t demonstrate your power by attacking people over shit like that, you show your FEAR. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/110 "2010-05-17T22:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Wasn’t it Robert Heinlein who used to say that “an armed society is a polite society”? Yes, it was, and he was wrong. An armed society isn’t a polite society; it’s just a society where you get shootings in addition to the rudeness. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/111 "2010-05-17T23:53:03Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I fail to see a contradiction between the two statements. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. The competent use it when appropriate. Not as a last refuge. The implication is that if you have to use violence, you are incompetant. IOW you aren’t smart or wise enough to come up with a non-violent solution. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/112 "2010-05-18T02:21:12Z")
Or you just defending yourself from an incompetent. The country that starts a war doesn’t always win. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/113 "2010-05-18T03:20:21Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Hmm. I _thought_ that was more of a rhetorical question. Look around! Read the news! This country is very violent today, and it’s much worse than fistfights. I don’t think society today is more violent than previously. It’s that we _hear_ about it more because of 24 hour news and the internet. In Ye Olde Days, someone robbing a bank and shooting a guard in Bumfluff, Wyoming wouldn’t generally be considered news in, say, the UK. But nowadays- thanks to 24 hour news channels and the web- _the entire English-speaking world_ hears about these things, even if they’re actually happening on the other side of the planet. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/114 "2010-05-18T04:06:30Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Wasn’t it Robert Heinlein who used to say that “an armed society is a polite society”? There are also fewer people in it. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/115 "2010-05-18T07:31:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > There are also fewer people in it. Fewer people? Fewer rude people? I’m still not seeing any reason to think Heinlein didn’t have the seeds of some great ideas. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/116 "2010-05-18T18:35:50Z")
The problem is that if you resolve interpersonal conflicts by fistfights, you’re essentially dividing society into two groups - those who are physically strong enough to defend their rights and those who aren’t. Is “respect anyone who’s big enough to hit you” really the basis for a civil society? Look at Robert Heinlein - an icon among the rugged libertarian individualist crowd. Now look at Hamilton Felix the protagonist of _Beyond This Horizon_, one of Heinlein’s political utopian novels. In this future society, men carried guns and challenged either other to duels if they were insulted. But the novel was written in 1948. So when Heinlein wrote about a female character who tried to carry a gun and assert herself as the equal of the male characters, the readers were supposed to see the absurdity of this. The men all dismissed her and refused to accept her dueling challenges. Eventually, she came to realize that she was not a real equal and learned to accept her secondary status as she should. Is that the kind of society we want to live in now? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/117 "2010-05-18T19:16:12Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Actually a little more fist fighting would be good for everyone. The most important lesson you learn from such situations is : _My actions have consequences_. Today people are able to act in absolutely abhorrent manners and get away with it scot free. Provided they don’t touch someone, or get really over the line sexually, there are no legal repercussions for the actions. A good punch to the face every now and then was a potent reminder to think before speaking or acting. > [@jtgain](#): > > Yes. An excellent rejoinder to my OP.. > > In other words, you had more respect towards someone because if you crossed a certain line, then fisticuffs would ensue Clearly, neither of you were bullied as kids. The lesson there was that if you took the verbal abuse without response, they’d get bored and pick on someone else. If you responded physically, the alpha male would clean your clock. If you beat him, the whole group would beat you to a bloody pulp. I _never_ saw a problem solved by starting a fight. I _never_ saw the combatants make friends afterward. The only time I saw violence solve the problem was when I grew weary of a lone bully that had been picking on me (physically) during much of 8th grade and defended myself. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’d just like to say that I find the idea of an adult male never having had a fight to be a bit dubious. Who are these people - some kind of wimps who avoided every physical confrontation they were faced with? Really? How old _are_ you? The 8th grade fistfight I mentioned above is not only the only fight I’ve ever been in, it’s the only fistfight I’ve ever _seen_. I hang out with grownups–we all outgrew fisticuffs by the time we reached high school. The closest I ever came to a fistfight as an adult was when someone was pushing me around in a bar. I faced off with him, the bouncer separated us, and it was over. > [@pedescribe](#): > > Here’s how I see it. In every society, there will be bullies. If it is socially acceptable to have fistfights and get away with it, then bullies will beat people up regularly and get away with it. I don’t like that idea. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/118 "2010-05-18T19:24:47Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Let’s not forget the great tradition of putting women over our knees and spanking them. I’ll be in ma’ bunk. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/119 "2010-05-18T20:21:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem is that if you resolve interpersonal conflicts by fistfights, you’re essentially dividing society into two groups - those who are physically strong enough to defend their rights and those who aren’t. Is “respect anyone who’s big enough to hit you” really the basis for a civil society? > > Look at Robert Heinlein - an icon among the rugged libertarian individualist crowd. Now look at Hamilton Felix the protagonist of _Beyond This Horizon_, one of Heinlein’s political utopian novels. In this future society, men carried guns and challenged either other to duels if they were insulted. But the novel was written in 1948. So when Heinlein wrote about a female character who tried to carry a gun and assert herself as the equal of the male characters, the readers were supposed to see the absurdity of this. The men all dismissed her and refused to accept her dueling challenges. Eventually, she came to realize that she was not a real equal and learned to accept her secondary status as she should. > > Is that the kind of society we want to live in now? Personally I lean more towards Glory Road but compared to what we got right now? This very minute? Yeah - I could live with that if I had to. [quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:117, topic:539568”] Clearly, neither of you were bullied as kids. The lesson there was that if you took the verbal abuse without response, they’d get bored and pick on someone else. If you responded physically, the alpha male would clean your clock. If you beat him, the whole group would beat you to a bloody pulp. I _never_ saw a problem solved by starting a fight. I _never_ saw the combatants make friends afterward. [/QUOTE] You’ll have to come over my place for a bbq some day. One of my best friends and I spent a fair bit of our free time from 2nd grade to about 10th grade beating the living snot out of each other. Sooner or later, between punches, it dawned on us that we had as much in common as we did different from each other. It happens. I’ve never seen a problem solved by endless debate; especially when both sides believe they are equally right. I’ve never seen a Al Sharpton type and a David Duke type make friends and I don’t see either going away or leaving others alone. That doesn’t mean debate and the verbal exchange of ideas is bad; just that like physical violence it has its placed when used wisely. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568/120 "2010-05-18T20:32:23Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > I’ve never seen a problem solved by endless debate; especially when both sides believe they are equally right. I’ve never seen a Al Sharpton type and a David Duke type make friends and I don’t see either going away or leaving others alone. That doesn’t mean debate and the verbal exchange of ideas is bad; just that like physical violence it has its placed when used wisely. So when talk does nothing, it’s time for physical violence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fist-fights-are-good-for-society/539568.md?page=7)