# Fittingly, Obama votes "present" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 25, 2016, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593 "2016-12-25T09:52:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/81 "2016-12-28T18:34:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > For the US right wing as well as for a fair amount of Democrats, Israel can do no wrong. It’s time to change that attitude if we ever are to achieve lasting peace. Changing attitudes towards Israel isn’t going to bring about lasting peace. You have to change the attitudes of Hizbollah and Hamas and Iran and ISIS, and the UN can’t do that, and ending settlements isn’t going to do it either. People are sick of the situation in the Middle East. The terrorists don’t care and aren’t going to change, and therefore the UN has no influence with them. So everybody concentrates on making Israel change, even though it won’t help. But at least they are doing something. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/82 "2016-12-28T19:05:45Z")
After a quick skim through [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine): previous UN Security Council resolutions regarding Israeli settlements that the US didn’t veto: 446, 452, and 465. The US voted for 452 and abstained for 446 and 465. Lots more criticism of Israel in that list; e.g., the US abstained on resolution 1435 against Israel’s operations in Ramallah. But that was okay, because a Republican did it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/83 "2016-12-28T19:23:07Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > But that was okay, because a Republican did it. Actually, okay because a white guy did it. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/84 "2016-12-28T19:23:51Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > After a quick skim through [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine): previous UN Security Council resolutions regarding Israeli settlements that the US didn’t veto: 446, 452, and 465. The US voted for 452 and abstained for 446 and 465. > > Lots more criticism of Israel in that list; e.g., the US abstained on resolution 1435 against Israel’s operations in Ramallah. A more comprehensive but still partial list [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19878287&postcount=48). It’s true that both the UNSC and UNGA seem to pay an undue amount of attention to Israel-Palestinian affairs, but it’s hardly consistently one-sided, and neither is the US position consistently one-sided. The US has abstained many times and sometimes voted with the UN against Israel, and other times voted with the UN supporting Israel. Both sides in this conflict are frequently nuts and deserving of being called out on it. The OP, as already said several times here, is completely without merit. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/85 "2016-12-28T19:37:21Z")
Good point; I didn’t mean to indicate that the list was entirely critical of Israel, just that it was chock full of Israel criticism and none of it vetoed by the US. …and somehow I missed your earlier post. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/86 "2016-12-28T19:38:32Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > All true, but an even greater number of Jews, both Israeli and American, want Israeli-Palestinian policy to be an internal matter decided by Israelis and Palestinians, rather than pushed on them by an external force, especially one that has shown a constant anti-Israel bias (by which I mean the UN, not Obama). Countries typically want to consider contentious matters as ‘internal’ and chafe at outside pressure. Accusing the UN of consistent anti-israel bias is childish. They don’t like the decisions and won’t change their behavior, so they whine about it. Slavery is an ‘internal matter’ Genocide is an ‘internal matter’ Gulags are an 'internal matter Sure they are. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/87 "2016-12-28T20:15:30Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Israel has a parliamentary system. Netanyahu’s Likud did not win a majority of votes, it won a plurality, and put together a majority coalition, not all of which necessarily agrees with everything he does. Yes, he won a plurality. That’s the point. If Israelis wanted to end the settlements, and work for peace in a two-state structure, they could vote that way. But they haven’t. I don’t understand why that’s an issue for you. > [@](#): > > Finally, I certainly do not think that Bibi would ever consider a Gaza-style unilateral pullout of the West Bank, given how troublesome Gaza has become What Bibi (and it’s charming that you use an affectionate nickname for him) wants is hardly the root of the problem. He only reflects what a “plurality” of Israelis want, and wanted when they elected Sharon, too. > [@](#): > > I certainly don’t think either he or most Israelis want to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians out of the West Bank. No, subjugation is sufficient, like the Boers and kaffirs. > [@](#): > > What they want is a peace treaty with an entity they feel is willing and capable of enforcing its end of the treaty Know what? So do many Palestinians. It isn’t really available to them though, is it? > [@](#): > > and on terms that You don’t start a negotiation by declaring anything significant to be non-negotiable. That is not good faith. > [@](#): > > does not give several million non-Jews some sort of automatic right to land claims within Israel proper. You also do not demonstrate good faith, a necessary precursor to genuine peace negotiation, by declaring asymmetric rights. If Jews have a right to settle in Palestine, based on claims from a book a couple of thousand years old at that, then why don’t Palestinians have a right to settle in Israel, based on actions taken within living memory? Still looking for a justification for the settlements that has a basis in any kind of morality, not just special pleading and fuck-everyone-else-ism. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/88 "2016-12-28T21:38:29Z")
ElvisL1ves: > [@](#): > > Yes, he won a plurality. That’s the point. If Israelis wanted to end the settlements, and work for peace in a two-state structure, they could vote that way. But they haven’t. I don’t understand why that’s an issue for you. But in the past, they did vote that way. For Rabin. For Barak. What ended up happening? Terrorist attacks and the 2000 Intifada. So they turned to Sharon and Netanyahu instead. As for my “issue”, you said “most Israelis voted for Netanyahu.” That’s not true, most did not, although due to their system, he ended up as PM. > [@](#): > > What Bibi (and it’s charming that you use an affectionate nickname for him) wants is hardly the root of the problem. He only reflects what a “plurality” of Israelis want, and wanted when they elected Sharon, too. You said that Netanyahu, and by extension, most Israelis, want policies that lead to ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank. You asked if there’s any alternate conclusion for what said policies were hoped to lead to. My alternate conclusion is what remains of my post. > [@](#): > > No, subjugation is sufficient, like the Boers and kaffirs. The “kaffirs” were fellow citizens whose rights were being abridged. The Palestinians are foreigners who came under Israeli control from a hostile entity. > [@](#): > > Know what? So do many Palestinians. It isn’t really available to them though, is it? Why not? Is the Israeli government not capable of controlling the Israeli army? Has the Israeli government not prosecuted lone-wolf Israeli citizens who attack Palestinians? > [@](#): > > You don’t start a negotiation by declaring anything significant to be non-negotiable. That is not good faith. Who declared them non-negotiable? You asked what conclusion can be reached about what most Israelis/Netanyahu want based on the policies they’ve pursued. That’s what I see as what they want and what their policies are hoped to lead to. > [@](#): > > You also do not demonstrate good faith, a necessary precursor to genuine peace negotiation, by declaring asymmetric rights. If Jews have a right to settle in Palestine, based on claims from a book a couple of thousand years old at that, then why don’t Palestinians have a right to settle in Israel, based on actions taken within living memory? When you lose a war, you lose land. The winners are the ones with the stronger bargaining position. That asymmetry is built in to war by definition. The current generation of Palestinians may have gotten screwed by their ancestors whose armies attacked the nascent Israeli state in 1948 and then later again in 1967, but that can be said of the descendants of the losers of any war. Why should the Palestinians be special? And BTW, none of the above was meant to justify settlements. They are specific points in response to specific posts. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/89 "2016-12-29T11:04:41Z")
[QUOTE=wolfpup;19876548] A vote either way would have made it much more difficult for the US to have any future role as a fair-minded arbitrator in two-state negotiations. [/QUOTE] …um actually, nobody (outside the USA) thinks that the US has any present role as a fair-minded arbitrator. The US is on the Israeli side. And I only put (outside the USA) because of your post: until you posted that, I didn’t realise that anyone /inside/ the USA thought that the US had any role as a fair-minded arbitrator. The US tries to be a fair-minded guarantor, a fair minded ally. The long-standing US policy of abstaining on votes where Israel is making a dick of themselves is not, of course, anything new with Obama, so he’s not the only president to have been condemned for it. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/90 "2016-12-29T11:14:23Z")
Obama’s actions of late are unsurprising. He’s been wanting to stick it to Israel for a long time. I think the realization that he wasn’t the Great Peacemaker during his Presidency and that the Middle East is a complicated place really upset him. Simplistically he blamed Netanyahu when of course the truth is that both sides are equally at fault. Fortunately his petty actions can’t do too much damage, everyone knows he’s a lame-duck President. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/91 "2016-12-29T13:08:54Z")
And at long last, we’ll have someone in command who isn’t prone to petty actions! #brainvomit #4amTweetStorm #grudgepayback ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/92 "2016-12-29T13:50:54Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > But in the past, they did vote that way. For Rabin. For Barak. What ended up happening? Terrorist attacks and the 2000 Intifada. So they turned to Sharon and Netanyahu instead. As usual, any problem is the other guys’ fault, never your own. That does get awfully tiring. > [@](#): > > As for my “issue”, you said “most Israelis voted for Netanyahu.” That’s not true, most did not, although due to their system, he ended up as PM. All right, fine - more Israelis voted for Netanyahu and his policies than for any other. Happy now? > [@](#): > > You said that Netanyahu, and by extension, most Israelis, want policies that lead to ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank. You asked if there’s any alternate conclusion for what said policies were hoped to lead to. My alternate conclusion is what remains of my post. I thank you for your concession. > [@](#): > > The “kaffirs” were fellow citizens whose rights were being abridged. The Palestinians are foreigners who came under Israeli control from a hostile entity. The topic here is settlements. Is Palestine a foreign land when you want it to be, part of Yeretz Israel when you want that? It does seem that way. > [@](#): > > Why not? Is the Israeli government not capable of controlling the Israeli army? Has the Israeli government not prosecuted lone-wolf Israeli citizens who attack Palestinians? Is the Israeli government interested in following normal standards of international law, or is it sponsoring colonization of occupied foreign land? Cherry-picking along with special pleading now. > [@](#): > > Who declared them non-negotiable? You did, in the post I was responding to. I trust you don’t need a quote. > [@](#): > > When you lose a war, you lose land. You do know you are justifying anything the Palestinians do to win the next one, don’t you? > [@](#): > > Why should the Palestinians be special? Why should the Israelis be special? > [@](#): > > And BTW, none of the above was meant to justify settlements. They are specific points in response to specific posts. Period. IOW, just more special pleading and fuck-everyone-else-ism, as already described. Is it really hard to understand how the rest of the world is out of patience? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/93 "2016-12-29T13:56:49Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > …um actually, nobody (outside the USA) thinks that the US has any present role as a fair-minded arbitrator. The US is on the Israeli side. And I only put (outside the USA) because of your post: until you posted that, I didn’t realise that anyone /inside/ the USA thought that the US had any role as a fair-minded arbitrator. Well, at least one person inside the US must believe the US can have a valuable role as a fair-minded arbitrator, namely Jimmy Carter, the architect of the two framework agreements collectively known as the Camp David Accords signed by Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat. And outside the US at least the Nobel Committee must believe it, too, because Begin and Sadat were jointly awarded the 1978 Nobel Peace Prize, and for that and other achievements in international diplomacy, Carter himself received the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002. No one is denying that the US is an ally of Israel, but if the US was unconditionally and consistently “on the Israeli side”, there wouldn’t be all those abstentions, let alone the dozen or so times that the US actually voted to condemn Israel’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/94 "2016-12-29T14:15:12Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Obama’s actions of late are unsurprising. He’s been wanting to stick it to Israel for a long time. I think the realization that he wasn’t the Great Peacemaker during his Presidency and that the Middle East is a complicated place really upset him. Simplistically he blamed Netanyahu when of course the truth is that both sides are equally at fault. You’re so right. It’s not like [Netanyahu all but openly favored Romney to win in 2012](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/romney-and-netanyahu-old-friends-now-at-center-of-iran-nuke-debate/), basically embarrassed the Obama administration by [timing the announcement of a new illegal settlement to be built while Biden was visiting Israel](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/world/middleeast/israel-benjamin-netanyahu-barack-obama.html), tried to undermine Obama’s foreign policy goals and U.S. foreign policy generally by [speaking to Congress (without even notifying the White House) and unsuccessfully urging them to reject the Iran deal](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/04/world/middleeast/netanyahu-congress-iran-israel-speech.html?_r=0), or [urged Trump to get involved in the recent UN Security Council vote](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/23/trump-intervenes-to-sideline-obama-over-israeli-settlements), also undermining Obama and the notion that there is “only one president at a time.” That old simpleton Obama. Always blaming Netanyahu for Netanyahu trying to interfere in U.S. politics when Netanyahu didn’t get his way. The Palestinians really do share equal blame for these incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/95 "2016-12-29T15:13:08Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > My understanding was that Netanyahu wanted the US to VETO, not vote against. With our abstention, the vote passed 14-0. Vetoing the resolution would have been the only way to please the Beebster. As one of the five permanent members, a vote against by the US _is_ a veto. > [@aldiboronti](#): > > Obama’s actions of late are unsurprising. He’s been wanting to stick it to Israel for a long time. So he allowed a meaningless resolution to pass. Boy, he sure showed them. Meanwhile, Netanyahu has actively and openly undermined him at every turn and campaigned for his opponents. I can’t imagine _why_ Obama might have thought it was pointless to engage with him. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/96 "2016-12-29T15:30:04Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Obama’s actions of late are unsurprising. He’s been wanting to stick it to Israel for a long time. I think the realization that he wasn’t the Great Peacemaker during his Presidency and that the Middle East is a complicated place really upset him. Simplistically he blamed Netanyahu when of course the truth is that both sides are equally at fault. > > Fortunately his petty actions can’t do too much damage, everyone knows he’s a lame-duck President. Petty??? Really?? Nitty and Drumpf are petty, not president Obama. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/97 "2016-12-29T15:33:30Z")
Kerry had a great line in his speech yesterday. “\*\*If the choice is one state, Israel can either be Jewish or democratic, it cannot be both \*\*. . ." By that he means incorporating the West Bank into the state of Israel would require either giving Palestinian residents Israeli citizenship or setting up an apartheid system in order to have a Jewish state. At the point where the current unofficial apartheid system becomes the state policy of Israel, the USA can no longer claim to be supporting “the only democracy in the Middle East”. * * * Trump meddling in this is far outside the tradition of American transitions. Clinton, Bush and Obama all refused to meddle in foreign affairs as president elects. Trump, asshole that he is, couldn’t resist. Vote Republican and prove that government is stupid, ineffective, corrupt and wasteful. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/98 "2016-12-29T18:21:45Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Kerry had a great line in his speech yesterday. “\*\*If the choice is one state, Israel can either be Jewish or democratic, it cannot be both \*\*. . ." Which I have seen partially quoted by outraged right-wing Jews: “Israel can either be Jewish or democratic, it cannot be both.” I the vast majority are just forwarding on this propaganda they see in some other source. But really, what kind of person originates this kind of shit? Is it partisanship? Malice? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/99 "2016-12-30T04:52:18Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > And Trump could give less of a shit about the future of Israel, so he’ll do whatever Sheldon Adelson commands, as long as the checks keep coming in. I think you’re quite wrong there. Trump has a lot of respect for Israel and cares very much about its future. I firmly expect him to be the only President to keep to his word and recognize Jerusalem as the ancient and present capital of the Israeli people. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593/100 "2016-12-30T05:30:20Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I firmly expect him to be the only President to keep to his word and recognize Jerusalem 😕 This sounds garbled, as though you were trying to say that all other Presidents have promised to recognize Jerusalem as the Israeli capital but not followed through. In fact, US administrations have generally been **against** making Jerusalem the Israeli capital. I can well believe that Trump will be unprecedentedly biased and foolish enough to finally throw a match in that powder keg, though. Although “caring about Israel’s future” is not exactly how I would describe such reckless hawkery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fittingly-obama-votes-present/775593.md?page=6)