# Fitz surnames revisited: What would a daughter be named? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fitz-surnames-revisited-what-would-a-daughter-be-named/253616 "2004-07-05T07:06:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fitz-surnames-revisited-what-would-a-daughter-be-named/253616/1 "2004-07-05T07:06:36Z")
Back in the day when the son of someone got “Fitz” and then his father’s last name as a surname (as in Patrick Fitzgerald), what name did his daughter get if he had one? Since Fitz means “son of,” like “Mac,” a girl with the name “Sarah Fitzpatrick” would mean “Sarah, Son of Patrick,” which doesn’t exactly work. So what’s the deal here? Did daughters not get surnames back then? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fitz-surnames-revisited-what-would-a-daughter-be-named/253616/2 "2004-07-05T07:13:11Z")
I don’t think you’ll want to know this, but “Fitz-” doesn’t exactly mean “son of-”. More specifically, it usually meant “bastard of-”… indicating illegitimacy, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fitz-surnames-revisited-what-would-a-daughter-be-named/253616/3 "2004-07-05T07:35:16Z")
[As discussed in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=263216&highlight=fitz+bastard), Fitz itself is not a indicator of illegitimacy, it simply means “Son of.” However, Fitzroy itself might indicate an illegitimate son of a king. Quoted from that thread: > [@](#): > > The first answer was Fitz, meaning the ‘son of’. This did not mean, as was commonly supposed in earlier times, an illegitimate son. The Viking society rarely made any distinction between descendants in or out of wedlock. Duke William himself was a bastard who had achieved the Duchy of Normandy. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fitz-surnames-revisited-what-would-a-daughter-be-named/253616/4 "2004-07-05T16:46:10Z")
Better to be the bastard son of a king than of some bum. Anyway could someone help me with the original question before this slides down to the second page? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fitz-surnames-revisited-what-would-a-daughter-be-named/253616/5 "2004-07-05T16:48:22Z")
When it had the actual meaning of son, the girls did not receive surnames or actual patronymics – she was Matilda or Nesta or whatever, if necessary, “Matilda the daughter of Ranulf FitzGerald” to specify which unmarried Matilda you were talking about. As it turned into a surname, it lost the “son of” concept, so that Harold Fitzgerald’s son was John Fitzgerald, and his daughter would be Matilda Fitzgerald, the Gerald who was the eponymous ancestor being several generations back. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fitz-surnames-revisited-what-would-a-daughter-be-named/253616/6 "2004-07-05T18:33:37Z")
In the medieval ages, Latin was the language of the learned. Scholarly writings throughout Europe were writtin Latin, as were historical chronicles, wills, etc. In Anglo-Norman England, were a woman described as “x daughter of x” this was the form it usually took: Matilda filia Henricus = Matilda daughter of Henry. Her brother William might be Willemus filius Henricus. _Filia_ means daughter (French “fille” is derived from the Latin) and its male counterpart, _filius_, meant son. From this is derived “Fitz-” meaning “son of-”. It had no especial connection to illegitimacy, though Fitzroy was the surname used for the illegitimate children of the king – his legitimate children were princes and princesses, obviously. Among Cambro-Britons, Welsh was the language and there a lady might be known as: Marared verch Llywelyn = Marared daughter of Llywelyn. Her brother Davydd might be Davydd ap Llywelyn, meaning Davydd son of Llywelyn.