# Five Down, Forty-Five To Go **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563 "2009-05-06T17:53:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/41 "2009-05-07T13:21:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The DC city council vote says that they’ll recognize same sex marriage performed elsewhere, but DC won’t do it there. This is just the prelude. The DC Council is testing the waters. If Congress doesn’t intervene (& they’ll do everything possible to avoid this issue) then it won’t be long before the council starts allowing SSM in the District. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/42 "2009-05-07T13:29:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Interesting note in the article about New York: > > > [@](#): > > > > Paterson has said New York’s gay and lesbian couples are denied up to 1,350 civil protections - including health care and pension rights - because they cannot marry. > > Wow - I’d be interested to see that list in full. I had no idea - and I bet most people don’t either - that there were that many issues at stake. Here’s a link to a page which discusses the issue, referring to rights available under US federal law and under state law: [Legal and Economic Benefits of Marriage](http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bene.htm). It summarises the rights available to married couples, with links to the detailed list itself, prepared last decade by the General Accounting Office. The list itself is over 75 pages long, with roughly 1000 rights under federal law, and roughly 400 under state laws. Since that particular list is now over a decade old, there no doubt have been some changes to some of the details, but it’s still likely accurate as a general description. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/43 "2009-05-07T13:47:36Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > This is just the prelude. The DC Council is testing the waters. If Congress doesn’t intervene (& they’ll do everything possible to avoid this issue) then it won’t be long before the council starts allowing SSM in the District. A few of the more pragmatic Republican Congresscritters are going to find one of their own a pain in the ass about this, though. According to [the Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/05/AR2009050501618.html?nav=igoogle): > [@](#): > > At least one GOP member said yesterday that he will try to block the bill from becoming law. > > “Some things are worth fighting for, and this is one of them,” said Rep. Jason Chaffetz (Utah), the ranking Republican on a House Oversight and Government Reform subcommittee that oversees the District. “It’s not something I can let go softly into the night. . . . I recognize the Democrats are in the majority, but I represent the majority of Americans on this issue.” From Utah. What a surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Sine\_Nomine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sine_nomine/32/513_2.png) [@Sine\_Nomine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sine_Nomine)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/44 "2009-05-07T23:30:52Z")
I think one of the greatest reasons for optimism is the fact the governor signed it despite saying, “It’s not the way I was raised and it’s not the way that I am.” I’ve been noticing, in the past few years, more and more conservative Christians who are saying, “Hey, even though I think it’s wrong, that’s no reason for it to be illegal.” Not the loudmouth conservative Christians who are so visible in politics, of course, but friends and acquaintances quietly living out their lives. There’s this fresh new zeitgeist that I’m seeing, strongest with my generation, but also trickling up to older generations. They’re realizing that conservative politicians having been manipulating people of faith for unsavory ends. The momentum is there and it’s definitely building. It’ll be interesting to see in the next decade or so what happens not only with same-sex marriage, but also how the Republican party adjusts to losing a base they used to have easily in their pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/45 "2009-05-08T04:03:27Z")
I’ll just note that if you include civil unions in the mix, currently there’s something like 14 states where you can be either married or otherwise legally joined. > **[Same-sex unions in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_union_in_the_United_States)** > > Same-sex unions in the United States are available in various forms in all states and territories, except American Samoa. All states have legal same-sex marriage, while others have the options of civil unions, domestic partnerships, or reciprocal beneficiary relationships. The federal government only recognizes marriage and no other legal union for same-sex couples. > Hawaii was the first state to recognize limited legal same-sex unions, doing so in 1997 in the form of reciprocal beneficiary relat... > **[Same-sex marriage in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States)** > > The availability of legally recognized same-sex marriage in the United States expanded from one state (Massachusetts) in 2004 to all fifty states in 2015 through various court rulings, state legislation, and direct popular votes. States each have separate marriage laws, which must adhere to rulings by the Supreme Court of the United States that recognize marriage as a fundamental right guaranteed by both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to t... ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/46 "2009-05-08T04:10:56Z")
To be specific: Vermont Connecticut New Jersey New Hampshire California Washington Oregon DC Maine Iowa Massachusetts Hawaii, Colorado, and Maryland are mostly there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/47 "2009-05-08T04:42:00Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > it boggles my mind how, in today’s world, discrimination of any sort, against anyone, can be championed and considered justifiable in any way. It actually makes me sick. Same here. Civil Rights issues are faaaarrrr from over in this country, unfortunately. We’re winning, but it’s taking longer than we thought. Once the gay thing is settled (believe me, bigots, it will be settled and the right side will win), the next big battle will be immigrants’ rights, especially Mexican immigrants. If more people knew what dirtbags like Joe Arpaio were up to, half the country would be walking around with their jaws dragging the floor. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/48 "2009-05-08T05:29:03Z")
Who’s Joe Arpaio? I don’t think I’ve heard the name before. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/49 "2009-05-08T05:31:19Z")
He’s our dickhead sheriff who is irrationally obsessed with immigration, to the tune of systematically harassing anyone with brown skin. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/50 "2009-05-08T16:11:20Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’ll just note that if you include civil unions in the mix,…\ I don’t. Civil Union is just a status applied in an attempt to, on the one hand, placate (I say insult) the LGBT community by offering some semblence of official recognition of their couplehood, yet still abridging their rights, while on the other hand, pander to the NOM crowd and their supporters by conferring a different (I say lesser) status to Gay and Lesbian couples than heterosexual ones, thereby elevating marriage to a higher level in a new and artifical hierarchy that gives the bigoted a reason to feel better (I say superior) about themselves. Civil Union legislation is not a step in the right direction toward full equality for Gays and Lesbians because its application promotes discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/51 "2009-05-08T16:18:52Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > …yet still abridging their rights, … I thought that civil unions conferred the same rights as marriage, just with a different name. That’s not right, I take it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/52 "2009-05-08T16:28:34Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I thought that civil unions conferred the same rights as marriage, just with a different name. That’s not right, I take it. [What is the difference between a Civil Union and Marriage?](http://www.legal-database.com/civil-union-marriage.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/53 "2009-05-08T16:31:44Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Civil Union legislation is not a step in the right direction toward full equality for Gays and Lesbians because its application promotes discrimination. I don’t agree. Marriage is preferable to civil unions, but it’s preferable to have some rights than none at all, and the passing of a civil union law both indicates a greater tolerance of gays among the general public, and could lead to even greater tolerance and acceptance, if they become commonplace. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/54 "2009-05-08T16:32:19Z")
While we’re on the subject, does anyone know which states, while not yet authorizing legally recognized same-sex unions to be contracted within their boundaries, do recognize ones contracted elsewhere? I know New York is on that list; I believe New Mexico is as well, and two or three other states I think. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/55 "2009-05-08T16:35:00Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [What is the difference between a Civil Union and Marriage?](http://www.legal-database.com/civil-union-marriage.htm) Although, that website isn’t really applicable in the case of gay marriage, because the advantages it says that marriage gives you (recognized in all fifty states and gives you federal benefits) aren’t the case when it comes to gay marriages. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/56 "2009-05-08T16:35:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Although, that website isn’t really applicable in the case of gay marriage, because the advantages it says that marriage gives you (recognized in all fifty states and gives you federal benefits) aren’t the case when it comes to gay marriages. Yet. That’s kind of the point of the push for marriage equality. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/57 "2009-05-08T16:37:26Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > While we’re on the subject, does anyone know which states, while not yet authorizing legally recognized same-sex unions to be contracted within their boundaries, do recognize ones contracted elsewhere? I know New York is on that list; I believe New Mexico is as well, and two or three other states I think. Wikipedia comes to your rescue: > **[File:Same-sex marriage in the United States.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg)** > > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. The following 55 pages use this file: > The following other wikis use this file: It looks like it’s just New York. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/58 "2009-05-08T16:42:33Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yet. > > That’s kind of the point of the push for marriage equality. Yes, I know, but until that happens, there’s no legal difference to the individual whether he has a gay marriage or a gay civil union. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/59 "2009-05-08T16:43:02Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Wikipedia comes to your rescue: > > [File:Same-sex marriage in the United States.svg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg) > > It looks like it’s just New York. And DC, too. At least, city council approved it (the one “nay” vote being Marion “Crackpipe” Barry). We’ll see if Congress decides it feels like micromanaging. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563/60 "2009-05-08T16:45:16Z")
Am I right in remembering the movement towards Gay Marriage started (prematurely) in Hawaii? I seem to recall there was a court ruling that said the state constitution permitted same-sex marriage. The right-wing went nuts and then… it fell off my radar screen. Can anyone recall the details? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/five-down-forty-five-to-go/495563.md?page=4)