# Fixed Sunset Time System
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 5, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111 "2013-11-05T01:40:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@barnhardt999](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barnhardt999)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/1 "2013-11-05T01:40:31Z")
The end of daylight savings time is depressing. I get home from work after dark. It got me wondering if there are any time systems that recognize sunset at a fixed time? It would be really nice if the sun set at 9 PM every night so that most people could enjoy a few hours of light after work. Since clocks are no longer mechanical, it seems like it would be fairly easy to shorten or lengthen the hour between 3-4 AM the necessary amount each day to achieve such a system.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/2 "2013-11-05T01:57:15Z")
Are you just mocking the justifications for DST in the summer? Because this system would put sunrise around noontime for a large part of the population. You’d be forcing people to live through\* even more darkness\*.
More seriously, this does not work because even _up and down the same longitude_, astronomical sunrise/sunset time _varies with latitude_. Civil solar time, when used, has generally meant that either noon is when the sun passes the meridian every day, or that the day itself begins/ends at sunset, and it usually applies _locally_. The whole point with time zones is for a large swath of land to be on the same civil hour, so you can schedule things across it and, with a simple adjustment, across multiple such swaths. Instead of 4 time zones across the continental USA you’d end up with hundreds. And I wonder if you’d have places in the high latitudes that would be frozen in civil time.
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### Author:  [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/3 "2013-11-05T02:02:30Z")
I feel required (even though against conventions) to note the fact that “Frozen in Civil Time” is either a great band name or the next novel from Vernon Vinge.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/4 "2013-11-05T02:09:38Z")
You’d actually want to fix the time of sunrise, not of sunset (which is more or less what DST attempts to do, just in a very discrete way).
And yes, this would mean that we’d no longer have large time zones with a uniform time within them, but I don’t think that this would make it impossible to schedule events. As noted, most clocks nowadays are connected to computers, and it wouldn’t be all that hard for computers to convert times as appropriate.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/5 "2013-11-05T02:42:50Z")
Heck, for coordinating things we could all just use UTC, worldwide, everywhere, _already today_. THAT part is simple. But the OP’s proposal _“would be really nice if the sun set at 9 PM every night so that most people could enjoy a few hours of light after work”_ can be rephrased as **wanting the end of the dayshift to come three or four hours before loss of light, every day** , everywhere. Sounds more like a matter of Labor Law than of civil time.
And let me proudly proclaim the only timepiece in my house or office that’s live-linked to a time signal is my mobile phone. Now get off my lawn before 0230UTC or I’m coming after ya, kids.
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### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/6 "2013-11-05T02:45:44Z")
But it’s still people who mostly are doing the scheduling. Sunrise today in San Francisco was 6:39 AM. Sunrise in Portland OR was 6:56 AM. If I need to schedule a 10:00 conference call from Portland with someone in SF, it just isn’t practical to tell them the call will be at 10:17 their time, even assuming I had a computer in front of me at all times to do the conversion.
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### Author:  [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/7 "2013-11-05T04:34:02Z")
> [@TroutMan](#):
>
> But it’s still people who mostly are doing the scheduling. Sunrise today in San Francisco was 6:39 AM. Sunrise in Portland OR was 6:56 AM. If I need to schedule a 10:00 conference call from Portland with someone in SF, it just isn’t practical to tell them the call will be at 10:17 their time, even assuming I had a computer in front of me at all times to do the conversion.
No one is suggesting that much precision. They only want, for example, that the sun should alway rise ABOUT two hours before the work day begins, and call that 7 AM. The phone call can still be scheduled for 10, and it’s no big deal for that to be 3h4m after sunrise in Portland, and 3h21m after sunrise in SF.
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### Author:  [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/8 "2013-11-05T04:43:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> As noted, most clocks nowadays are connected to computers, and it wouldn’t be all that hard for computers to convert times as appropriate.
I just did a quick inventory of all the object in my apartment that are capable of displaying the time. Five of them (computer, DVD player, Roku, iPod, cell phone) can readjust themselves after the DST shift. Six of them (landline phone, clock-radio, wristwatch, microwave, stove, decorative clock) cannot — seven if you count the clock in my car.
So I’m always a little surprised when people say that “most clocks are connected to computers.” They must lead very different lives from me.
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/9 "2013-11-05T04:50:44Z")
I think what you’re proposing could only exist with graduated elastic hours. There would be a fixed number of hours between sunrise and sunset, and those hours would be long in summer and short in winter. And we could keep time zones by just averaging the time in each zone. Of course it would be very problematic for our circadian rhythms, as well as many other things, like farming.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/10 "2013-11-05T05:09:20Z")
This is more or less what the Romans had, isn’t it? Daylight hours started at sunrise and continued until sunset, with the length of the hour being ajusted through the year to make sure there was always twelve hours. Barnhardt999 is proposing that just one hour should be adjusted by a large amount, instead of every hour being adjusted by an equal but smaller amount, but other than that it’s basically the same system.
Barhhardt999’s proposal breaks down over the fact that adjusting just one hour won’t be enough; at many latitudes, the time of sunrise/sunset varies by well over an hour in the course of the year, so after the hour between 3 and 4am has contracted to nothing, he’s going to have to pick another hour to shrink.
Which is doable, of course, but it points us to another problem. Your need for sleep cannot be similarly contracted; if the hour from 3 to 4 am is eliminated, you’re going to have to go to bed an hour earlier, or get up an hour later, or suffer sleep deprivation.
As JRDelirious points out, what barnhardt999 actually wants to do is to shift the working day so that it starts and ends at a time fixed relative to sunset (or sunrise). This is easy to do since, unlike sunrise, sunset and the circadian rhythm of the human body, working hours are arbitrary, and fixed by convention. In fact, adjusting the working day by reference to hours of daylight is commonly done by people following agrarian or, in agrarian societies, by everyone. It doesn’t require any tinkering with standard time, or the linking of all the world’s clocks to the internet. Barnhardt’s proposal seems to me to be massively over-engineered for the problem that it seeks to resolve.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/11 "2013-11-05T08:13:28Z")
It would be simpler to keep the clock the same and just have a table daily adjusted start and finish times for work;
- In the summer, you get to lie in bed until mid-morning, then saunter into the office, finishing in time to go home for your four hours of daylight before sunset.
- In the winter, you have to get up a few hours after midnight, do your working day and finish just after noon, so you still get your four hours of daylight.
The effect on your person would be the same regardless.
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### Author:  [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/12 "2013-11-05T08:56:55Z")
> [@MikeS](#):
>
> So I’m always a little surprised when people say that “most clocks are connected to computers.” They must lead very different lives from me.
At least in my generation we do. The only clocks my friends and I use are on our phone, computer, or tablet.
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### Author:  [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/13 "2013-11-05T09:14:18Z")
Truck drivers in the EU, which (I think) covers five time zones, use GMT (although they call it UTC) as the basis for measuring their heavily regulated working hours.
All trucks are fitted with a tachograph which will usually show local time on its face, but records the driving, resting and other work periods in GMT.
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### Author:  [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/14 "2013-11-05T12:33:35Z")
> [@Mangetout](#):
>
> It would be simpler to keep the clock the same and just have a table daily adjusted start and finish times for work;
>
> - In the summer, you get to lie in bed until mid-morning, then saunter into the office, finishing in time to go home for your four hours of daylight before sunset.
> - In the winter, you have to get up a few hours after midnight, do your working day and finish just after noon, so you still get your four hours of daylight.
>
> The effect on your person would be the same regardless.
The effect on your person would be that each year, we have not just two weekends of screwed up sleep patterns and missed appointments, but a whole bunch of them.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/15 "2013-11-05T12:57:37Z")
I imagine some small percentage of people would manage it just fine - thrive on it even, but yes - it would be more harm than benefit for most.
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### Author:  [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/16 "2013-11-05T13:38:30Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#):
>
> At least in my generation we do. The only clocks my friends and I use are on our phone, computer, or tablet.
None of you have a car or a microwave oven?
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### Author:  [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/17 "2013-11-05T13:41:32Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#):
>
> At least in my generation we do. The only clocks my friends and I use are on our phone, computer, or tablet.
Man, I feel old now. [But I suppose I already knew that from _Community_.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF-NLyfgxT8)
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### Author:  [@wabsnazsm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wabsnazsm)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/18 "2013-11-05T14:09:24Z")
> **[Swahili Time](https://nilau.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/swahili-time/)**
>
> No, this is not a game of ‘What’s Wrong With This Picture’. What you are looking at is a clock with numbers that have been moved to tell Swahili time. Back in my beginning …
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### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/19 "2013-11-05T14:35:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> You’d actually want to fix the time of sunrise, not of sunset (which is more or less what DST attempts to do, just in a very discrete way).
How about we compromise and fix the midpoint between sunrise and sunset?
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### Author:  [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixed-sunset-time-system/673111/20 "2013-11-05T14:51:34Z")
> [@panache45](#):
>
> I think what you’re proposing could only exist with graduated elastic hours. There would be a fixed number of hours between sunrise and sunset, and those hours would be long in summer and short in winter. And we could keep time zones by just averaging the time in each zone. Of course it would be very problematic for our circadian rhythms, as well as many other things, like farming.
This was the practice of Ancient Egypt. Egypt fixed the number of hours in a day at 24 but let them vary in length depending on the exact time of sunrise and sunset. Babylon adopted the practice of the 24 hour day but thought the idea of varying hour lengths was stupid, so they fixed it at exactly 1/24th of a day. They also decided they needed a smaller time unit, so they divided the hour in the way it made most sense for them to do so. Remember, the Babylonian number system was base 60…
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