# Fixing Education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669 "2011-07-03T00:29:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/41 "2011-07-03T16:49:34Z")
> [@theR](#): > > Why? Is there some evidence of this? I actually think lengthening the year might make sense but it seems to me that eight hours of school a day is enough I think 8 hours is enough, too. Most schools have 7. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/42 "2011-07-03T17:16:55Z")
How about sex segregation? The parallel education system sounds interesting. Boys and girls go to the same school but you separate them for core classes and then mix them together for fluff classes, lunch, etc. > [@Odesio](#): > > For example, having students write out complete sentences gets them in the habit of communicating more effectively. That’s the purpose of essays. If the question is “What’s the capital of California?” then having to write out “The capital of California is Sacramento” instead of just “Sacramento” is busywork. I think the justification was it would help you remember. This was one of the few areas where math was better than the other classes. > [@](#): > > Having students read out loud is a quick way to gauge whether or not a student is having difficulty reading and whether other students are having difficulty keeping up. Of course what’s appropriate for a group of 9th graders and what’s appropriate for a group of 3rd graders is probably different. I was thinking mostly of middle/high schoolers who aren’t in remedial classes. I’ve even seen this in some college courses. IMO the only time that’s really acceptable is if there’s a sub because he might not have a lesson plan. You can read a lot faster than most people can talk, but you can’t read ahead because you might get called on and you have to know what part they’re on. I guess it teaches multi-tasking when you can read ahead and do the work and keep track of where the class is all at the same time. The best situation was when they did it in some sort of order, like row by row, so you didn’t have to pay any attention until the person before you started to talk. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/43 "2011-07-03T17:21:33Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > How about sex segregation? The parallel education system sounds interesting. Boys and girls go to the same school but you separate them for core classes and then mix them together for fluff classes, lunch, etc. I doubt that would even be legal in public schools as widescale system and I can’t imagine why anyone would think that is a good idea in general. Honestly, if you want to go that route to boost the numbers, it would probably be more effective to segregate by race or parental income. Do you want to propose that too? ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/44 "2011-07-03T17:31:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No. What you get are: > > 1. The single saints, people who have a calling and who are willing to take a vow of poverty; > 2. The doctor-spouses, people who don’t need the money and do this to pass the time; > 3. The burnouts, people who think they’re #1 but who form a family, realize they literally can’t afford to do this job, and go somewhere else; and > 4. The schmucks, people for whom teaching really is the best money they can make. > > If you raise the salary, you’ll keep the people with a calling, transferring the burnouts into their category. And the quality of your schmucks will improve dramatically. > > I’ve known all four groups. #1 and #3 are great. #2 may or may not be great. #4 is pathetic right now. The problem is, the unions protect the schmucks to the hilt… making them impossible to fire. So you might attract some “saints”, but there won’t be jobs for them. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/45 "2011-07-03T17:39:58Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Not to dog pile, but what do you think you’re solving for by getting rid of tenure? Lack of tenure makes teaching a less attractive career choice. It also has the potential to be a popularity contest (let’s survey the parents and kids and see what teacher they like best) instead of doing what’s right. So, correct me if I’m wrong, but at first glance your teacher solution seems to be lowering salary/benefits and job security, which seems to be counter-intuitive to “fixing” the education problem. Your thoughts? My apologies, I missed this earlier and I’m not ignoring your valid questions. My opinion is that retention in any job should be based on job performance and seniority. I’ve been in jobs where I was let go to make a position for the relative of someone who was friends with a manager, and we don’t want that sort of thing going on in education. To say that giving a teacher “tenure” and making them impossible to fire no matter how indifferent or incompetant they are is really part of the problem. If you set that as a goal, just hang around long enough to get tenure, and then don’t give a flip, we’ll keep paying you until you retire, and if you are young enough, you can get a double dip in someone else’s school system. That’s fiscal insanity and policy foolishness Any workplace should be a meritocracy. Few of them are, private or public. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/46 "2011-07-03T17:45:57Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > How about sex segregation? The parallel education system sounds interesting. Boys and girls go to the same school but you separate them for core classes and then mix them together for fluff classes, lunch, etc. I agree with Shagnasty. We tried the “seperate but equal” experiment once and it didn’t work out. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/47 "2011-07-03T17:48:28Z")
I also agree with those who say deunionizing teachers would be nothing but bad. The OP and others can argue for the theoretical benefits of being able to get rid of bad teachers. But, as others have pointed out, the real world effect would be administrations would have an easier time cutting salaries and benefits and that would drive out good teahcers. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/48 "2011-07-03T17:50:09Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > When the OP talks about “fixing” education, he means fixing it like a ball game, not fixing it like a lawn mower. And your side has done such a smash up job with 20% of kids not being able to read their diplomas? I started this thread because the topic was distracting from the Bachmann thread, but if Public Education is so great, why do so few Democratic Politicians send their kids there after cashing those big checks from the Teachers’ unions. As I said, I went to Catholic Schools in Chicago, which may not have been a great investment on my parents’ part as I am not a practicing Catholic. And although my parents weren’t by any definition rich (they were middle class when we had a well off middle class in this country), I did get to hob-nob with the children of the Machine Political Elite. None of these leaders sent their kids into the Public Schools. Not the Daleys, not the Obamas, not the Lipinskis. “Ha-ha, your Dad’s Under Indictment”. Good times. (No, that seriously happened once.) So when your party praises education, it would be like them praising an airline none of them would let their family members fly on, but will still insist the rest of us use it, or else, even though we can see the engines are about to drop off. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/49 "2011-07-03T17:53:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I also agree with those who say deunionizing teachers would be nothing but bad. The OP and others can argue for the theoretical benefits of being able to get rid of bad teachers. But, as others have pointed out, the real world effect would be administrations would have an easier time cutting salaries and benefits and that would drive out good teahcers. That would be great if Teacher Unions were like the Trade unions, and maintained standards. They really don’t. [http://emergingcorruption.com/2010/12/child-molesting-teacher-cant-be-fired-thanks-to-union/](http://emergingcorruption.com/2010/12/child-molesting-teacher-cant-be-fired-thanks-to-union/) > [@](#): > > In 1997 a Brooklyn teacher was accused of attempting to molest a sixth-grade girl at PS 138. As it happened, he admitted the behavior, but no criminal charges were filed when all was said and done. Still one would think the fact that he inappropriately fondled a teen should be enough to get him fired from his teaching position. But then again, in New York you can’t even fire a child molester if he happens to be a teachers union member. > > Thanks to the fact that it is nearly impossible to fire a teacher, this lowlife has been drawing his almost $100,000-a-year salary to do nothing. You heard that right, to do nothing. > > You see, even as the union agrees that this pedophile isn’t fit for a classroom, the union still won’t agree to his being fired. So, teacher Roland Pierre sits in a “rubber room” five days a week and does nothing and he’s paid $97,101yearly to do so. And that doesn’t include benefits. Now, what’s wrong with this picture? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/50 "2011-07-03T17:56:34Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > What do you think firewalls are made for? Sure they can be circumvented, but the student faces suspension for doing it. Paper and pencils are growing old. We already have eBooks. Soon, iPads and other tablets will be all there is while we let trees grow. Just because you want education to move backward, not forward, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. If you’re facing the Grand Canyon and the rim is two feet in front of you, then its better to move backwards rather than forwards. If your education system is heading towards a situation where children will play Angry Birds on Chrome whenever there isn’t a teacher looking over their shoulder, it’s also better to move backwards than forwards. A few years back I started [this thread](http://www.amazon.com/Shallows-What-Internet-Doing-Brains/dp/0393339750/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309715109&sr=1-1), mentioning some of the large amount of evidence that technology is bad for educational achievement. The aforementioned book by Mark Bauerlein has several chapters on the subject, as does _[The Shallows](http://www.amazon.com/Shallows-What-Internet-Doing-Brains/dp/0393339750/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309715109&sr=1-1)_, by Nicholas Carr. It’s a proven fact that students are less likely to remember text from electronic screens than from printed pages and less likely to absorb ideas from text full of hyperlinks than from plain text. On the particular topic of Firewalls, I have yet to see any firewall that’s truly effective at blocking all or almost all websites that students should be using. There’s also the possibility that firewalls may block sites that are useful, [which is not a trivial issue](http://www.edweek.org/tm/articles/2010/11/10/tln_firewall.html). Ultimately, though, our education system needs to be based on sound, replicable research about what works, not on gushing about the vague benefits of technology. What exact advantage is there to online debates over face-to-face debates? In a face-to-face debate, students see the reactions to their statements in the faces and body language of their peers and teachers. In an online debate they lose that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/51 "2011-07-03T18:00:38Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I don’t have a problem paying teachers more but you can’t pay the same teachers we have more money and get better results if nothing else changes. Teachers complain about pay but it really isn’t bad at all in most states. In my town, teachers generally make well over 60K a year salaried plus benefits (including a generous retirement plan) and flexible summers. That isn’t wealthy by any stretch but it certainly isn’t poor either especially when the full compensation package is taken into account. The teachers in your town are paid well above average. Here’s some [median salaries](http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary/by_State) from different states - all are below $50,000. I’m not saying we need to pay teachers like CEO’s. Or even bankers, lawyers, and physicians. But shouldn’t we be paying them at least the same kind of money we pay professionals like architects, dentists, or pharmacists? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/52 "2011-07-03T18:02:55Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Now, what’s wrong with this picture? Wow. I stand corrected. My position has been completely undermined by your fourteen year old anecdote. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/53 "2011-07-03T18:02:58Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Fix the problem of an expensive and ineffectual administration, get that money to the classrooms, and you might see better results; Obviously if we knew how to fix the problem of an expensive and ineffectual administration, we’d be on the road to solving the problems with our education system. The problem is that we don’t know how, for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is that there are powerful interests who benefit from an expensive and ineffectual administration. There are also judges who have taken it upon themselves to order around the school system and require that every school must spend this much money on this or have this many employees devoted to that. There’s no process for reigning in the judges, and the judges have no personal motivation not to meddle. Tied in to that is the problem of lawsuits. Saying that we should fix the administration in the schools is akin to saying that we should fix the schools, but it doesn’t tell us how to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/54 "2011-07-03T18:24:29Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > The problem is, the unions protect the schmucks to the hilt… making them impossible to fire. This is one of those commonly-repeated myths that doesn’t make the least amount of sense if you think about it for a second. Of course teachers can be fired; in all systems there’s a clear method for firing teachers. And of course unions will advocate on behalf of their constituents; that’s what professional organizations do. Scenarios like NY’s infamous rubber rooms aren’t an example of overreaching unions: they’re examples of incompetent administration. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/55 "2011-07-03T18:33:22Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Not to dog pile, but what do you think you’re solving for by getting rid of tenure? Lack of tenure makes teaching a less attractive career choice. It also has the potential to be a popularity contest (let’s survey the parents and kids and see what teacher they like best) instead of doing what’s right. So, correct me if I’m wrong, but at first glance your teacher solution seems to be lowering salary/benefits and job security, which seems to be counter-intuitive to “fixing” the education problem. Your thoughts? There are teachers in my school district who can’t speak English on any level that would be considered competent. As far as the op’s position on standardized testing, it is aimed at poor school districts where the grading curve allows students (who do failing work) to pass with high marks. Those are the schools that are “teaching to the test” because there is no standard without it. Schools that are not academically challenged do not “teach to the test” and the students have no problems passing a test that is already woefully short of the educational goal line. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/56 "2011-07-03T18:36:34Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > …I can’t imagine why anyone would think that is a good idea in general. Because, theoretically, young teenage girls are intimidated by boys and are reluctant to participate in science and math classes if boys are around judging them for being nerdy or smart. This doesn’t seem to go away until they’re like 16 or 17. And boys lose their incentive to clown around and be asses (as much) if their audience is taken away. And it just removes a lot of distractions and disciplinary problems. These propositions haven’t been studied very well but they line up with my experiences and biases. > [@](#): > > Honestly, if you want to go that route to boost the numbers, it would probably be more effective to segregate by race or parental income. Do you want to propose that too? Students are already de facto segregated by parental income. I don’t think segregating by race would be particularly helpful. Different races get along just fine. And when they form cross-racial cliques it’s along gender lines. But if asians and hispanics or whoever for some reason really didn’t get along and they constantly fought and created a hostile learning environment it seems like separating them would be an obvious solution. I would agree though that there are much bigger problems in the system. But those won’t be solved anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/57 "2011-07-03T20:08:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is one of those commonly-repeated myths that doesn’t make the least amount of sense if you think about it for a second. Of course teachers can be fired; in all systems there’s a clear method for firing teachers. And of course unions will advocate on behalf of their constituents; that’s what professional organizations do. > > Scenarios like NY’s infamous rubber rooms aren’t an example of overreaching unions: they’re examples of incompetent administration. Did you read the link I posted about the teacher who molested a sixth grader and has been suspended WITH PAY for nearly a decade because they can’t fire him? This was an extreme case, because apparently, this guy had been in this status for 13 years, and pulls down 97K a year! The purpose of the “Rubber Room” is to get someone to quit on his own. Throw him in a room with all the other useless creatures, and he might finally figure out he’s one. Frankly, I don’t agree with it, there should be quick hearings and fast resolutions. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/58 "2011-07-03T21:15:14Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Obviously if we knew how to fix the problem of an expensive and ineffectual administration, we’d be on the road to solving the problems with our education system. The problem is that we don’t know how, for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is that there are powerful interests who benefit from an expensive and ineffectual administration. Who are these “powerful interests who benefit from an expensive and ineffectual administration”? I mean, other than the administrators themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/59 "2011-07-03T22:00:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Wow. I stand corrected. My position has been completely undermined by your fourteen year old anecdote. Guy, it isn’t a 14 year old anecdote. This fool is STILL collecting a paycheck from NYC at 75, even though 14 years ago, he molested a sixth grader. In short, a pedophile can’t be fired after 14 years and is collecting a full salary of 97K because the teacher’s union has fought the City of New York on this guy’s behalf for a decade and a half. So, uh, yeah, your position has been completely undermined. If they can’t get rid of THIS joker, what chance do they have with the teachers who just don’t give a flip but otherwise aren’t overtly harming students. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/60 "2011-07-03T22:06:06Z")
I work in education, but I work for a private company and in general I am allowed to do my thing so long as I get results and dont generate complaints. its amazing what you can teach kids when you dont have to deal with the non-sense side of things and can use actual research proven tricks to get your message out. public education in this country will never change, human beings are incapable of changing their beliefs even in the face of overwhelming evidence and that includes the people who get to make the decisions. I suspect that with enough private funding you could create a research school where kids would be taught curriculum’s based on research instead of opinions, based on trial and error trial and error trial and error instead of here I just pulled this out of my ass use it verbatim for the next 10 years even though there are obvious errors in it right now. then if you had your school and could show evidence of a better education you Might have a chance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669.md?page=4)