# Fixing Education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669 "2011-07-03T00:29:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/61 "2011-07-03T22:21:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is one of those commonly-repeated myths that doesn’t make the least amount of sense if you think about it for a second. Of course teachers can be fired; in all systems there’s a clear method for firing teachers. And of course unions will advocate on behalf of their constituents; that’s what professional organizations do. > > Scenarios like NY’s infamous rubber rooms aren’t an example of overreaching unions: they’re examples of incompetent administration. In this you’re wrong. While it may be technically true that there’s a means for firing teachers, in practice it’s virtually impossible. The Atlantic ran a big article last month by Joel Klein, head of New york City’s public schools for eight years, who said this: > [@](#): > > In fact, notwithstanding union rhetoric that “tenure is merely due process,” firing a public-school teacher for non-performance is virtually impossible. In New York City, which has some 55,000 tenured teachers, we were able to fire only half a dozen or so for incompetence in a given year, even though we devoted significant resources to this effort. > > The extent of this “no one gets fired” mentality is difficult to overstate—or even adequately describe. Steven Brill wrote an eye-opening piece in The New Yorker about the “rubber rooms” in New York City, where teachers were kept, while doing no work, pending resolution of the charges against them—mostly for malfeasance, like physical abuse or embezzlement, but also for incompetence. The teachers got paid regardless. (To add insult to injury, these cases ultimately were heard by an arbitrator whom the union had to first approve.) > … > Perhaps the most shocking example of the City’s having to pay for teachers who don’t work involves several teachers accused of sexual misconduct—including at least one who was found guilty—whom the union-approved arbitrators refuse to terminate. Although the City is required to put them back in the classroom, it understandably refuses to do so. And the union has never sued the City to have these teachers reinstated, even though it knows it could readily win. It has also never helped figure out how to get these deadbeats off the payroll, where they may remain for decades at full pay, followed by a lifetime pension. No one—and the union means no one—gets fired. It is not incompetent administration that makes it hard to fire incompetent teachers. It’s a deliberate goal of the unions to make it hard to fire incompetent teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/62 "2011-07-04T00:46:31Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In this you’re wrong. While it may be technically true that there’s a means for firing teachers, in practice it’s virtually impossible. The Atlantic ran a big article last month by Joel Klein, head of New york City’s public schools for eight years, who said this: > > It is not incompetent administration that makes it hard to fire incompetent teachers. It’s a deliberate goal of the unions to make it hard to fire incompetent teachers. You’re not getting what I’m saying. Of course the teacher-advocacy organization is going to make it hard to fire their members. Frankly I don’t see that as a problem, any more than I see it as a problem for defense lawyers to make it hard to convict their clients. They’re advocates, not arbiters. The problem is that administration knuckles under. Given that I’m blaming the administration for their incompetence, an administrator’s complaint about his inability to do his job is hardly convincing. “Oh, no, the union won’t agree to fire a child molestor!” Guess what: they don’t HAVE to agree. You’re the boss; fire the child molestor anyway. If you’re so scared of the union that you’re not willing to risk a confrontation over firing a pedophile, you need to find a new job. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/63 "2011-07-04T02:41:12Z")
That’s fine, ITR Champion. You’re only one person. Other people either don’t know about tech, or don’t care about tech, and most would side with the techies. I’ll admit, learning to do what machines can already do would be useful, in a post-apocalyptic Earth. It sounds to me like you’re counting on some really big shit hitting a really big fan, and the world being brought near the brink of destruction. Me? I don’t think it will happen, or that if it does, some very smart people will get the problems locked down quickly, with minimal damage to humanity and the planet. And don’t bring up the Great Recession as an example of shit hitting the fan. In the grand scheme of things, that was really just a tiny fart. You seem like a survivalist wackjob. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/64 "2011-07-04T11:17:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’re not getting what I’m saying. Of course the teacher-advocacy organization is going to make it hard to fire their members. Frankly I don’t see that as a problem, any more than I see it as a problem for defense lawyers to make it hard to convict their clients. They’re advocates, not arbiters. The problem is that administration knuckles under. Given that I’m blaming the administration for their incompetence, an administrator’s complaint about his inability to do his job is hardly convincing. “Oh, no, the union won’t agree to fire a child molestor!” Guess what: they don’t HAVE to agree. You’re the boss; fire the child molestor anyway. If you’re so scared of the union that you’re not willing to risk a confrontation over firing a pedophile, you need to find a new job. Except, again, the unions fight tooth and nail over any firing. And the unions have the ability to raise money to influence elections, which ought to be illegal. And frankly, unions backing PEDOPHILE teachers is unacceptable. Comparing unions to trial lawyers (wow, what a backhanded insult, really) is kind of the problem. The Unions SHOULD be about improving education. If one of their members is part of the problem, they should either straighten him out or get rid of him with little prompting from administration. “Well, he paid his dues. So what if he fondled that kid?” And you wonder why guys like Walker and Christy get elected? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/65 "2011-07-04T12:35:27Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > the unions have the ability to raise money to influence elections, which ought to be illegal. On this, you’re right. So should corporations be banned from political contributions, correct? Hello? Is anyone there? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/66 "2011-07-04T12:52:11Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > And you wonder why guys like Walker and Christy get elected? Did the opponents in the states outside of New York run on a “protect the pedophiles in NYC school” platform? If not, and those guys really DID win because of pedophiles in NYC schools, then you will have to explain how this recreational outrage story in a different state determined those elections. Mind you, I don’t doubt that there is a connection. I know how these recreational outrage stories are cherry picked, misrepresented, and milked by the right wing pundits to keep their followers in a constant state of mindless outrage so they’ll go vote against their own interests. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/67 "2011-07-04T13:08:14Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > On this, you’re right. So should corporations be banned from political contributions, correct? Hello? Is anyone there? I’d personally have no problem with that, but the Teacher’s unions are a special case. With a corporation, if I don’t like the politics it supports, I have the option of not buying their products. They work for US, we don’t work for them. If they are buying influence on our dime, yeah, I think we need to be worried about that. And if the result is to absolve themselves from any accountability or standard in the job they do, that we are paying for, then we should be downright angry. If the Teacher Unions were out there policing their own, which is what a good union should do, I’d have no problem with them. They should want only good teachers. They shouldn’t want pedophile teachers or teachers with substance abuse problems or teachers who don’t give a flip. I grew up in a union household. Unions should mean, “our people are the best, if you hire one of us, you get someone who knows what he is doing.” It should not mean, “Heck, he paid his dues, and you’re stuck with him no matter how much of a fugnut he is.” ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/68 "2011-07-04T13:14:57Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Did the opponents in the states outside of New York run on a “protect the pedophiles in NYC school” platform? If not, and those guys really DID win because of pedophiles in NYC schools, then you will have to explain how this recreational outrage story in a different state determined those elections. > > Mind you, I don’t doubt that there is a connection. I know how these recreational outrage stories are cherry picked, misrepresented, and milked by the right wing pundits to keep their followers in a constant state of mindless outrage so they’ll go vote against their own interests. I think there are a lot of BS outrage issues the GOP uses. Abortion and Gay marriage are the top two on my list, and you won’t hear me toeing the right wing line on them. This isn’t one of them, though. People should be angry about this, especially parents. Yes, the pedophile teacher collecting $97,000 a year for 14 years to do no work because the unions have made him impossible to fire is an extraordinary case. But it should upset people because deep down, they know that if this guy is the high water mark, below him are teachers who are really just incompetant, but heck, if you can’t fire this guy, you just have to take it with the mundane burnout teacher who stopped caring a long time ago and is just marking time to his pension. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/69 "2011-07-04T13:18:04Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Except, again, the unions fight tooth and nail over any firing. Should they fight any firing? Sure. Should the administration fire a pedophile? Absolutely. When the union fights a firing, they’re doing their job. When administration fails to fire a pedophile, they’re failing to do their job. > [@](#): > > Comparing unions to trial lawyers (wow, what a backhanded insult, really) is kind of the problem. The Unions SHOULD be about improving education. They are, for the most part, but they shouldn’t be: they should be about advancing the interests of their members. If you want NEA to be more like a state medical board, advancing the profession instead of advocating for its members, then give them more power, not less. You think that comparing unions to trial lawyers is a backhanded insult? Serious question: **why do you hate America** (and, more specifically, the sixth amendment)? ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/70 "2011-07-04T13:34:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Should they fight any firing? Sure. Should the administration fire a pedophile? Absolutely. When the union fights a firing, they’re doing their job. When administration fails to fire a pedophile, they’re failing to do their job.) No, when a union fights to keep a pedophile priest on the job, they are harming the children, either by exposing them to this creep or by wasting resources to keep him in a rubber room. It is not a union’s job to fight every firing. They should evaluate it on a case by case basis, and pick who actually deserves to be fought for. I have no problem with the union backing a teacher who is being fired or demoted because they have a personality conflict with an egomanical principal. I have a HUGE problem with protecting criminal and incompetant teachers who the system would be better off without. > [@](#): > > They are, for the most part, but they shouldn’t be: they should be about advancing the interests of their members. If you want NEA to be more like a state medical board, advancing the profession instead of advocating for its members, then give them more power, not less.) They haven’t shown themselves to be responsible with the power they’ve been given, that isn’t a case for giving them more. > [@](#): > > You think that comparing unions to trial lawyers is a backhanded insult? Serious question: **why do you hate America** (and, more specifically, the sixth amendment)? Hey, I don’t deny they serve a function, but so does a cockroach. I’ll still splat one if I find it in my kitchen. I guess I have a real problem with someone who tries to get a mass murderer off on a technicality, knowing he did it. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/71 "2011-07-04T13:40:22Z")
I can’t find a story that doesn’t link back to the New York Post article (eye roll), so at best I’d call this “pedophile in a rubber room” a story about which I have unanswered questions. But accepting it at face value, it’s the king of thing you can “be mad” about (fat lot of good it will do you), but its use is to foment blanket outrage over public education and teachers’ unions. This guy is the welfare mom in her Cadillac, Willie Horton, and the little girl who climbed into Bush’s lap and said “pweeze keep me safe fwom the tewwowists, Mistaw Buff.” It’s not necessarily representative of widespread issues, but it’s not supposed to lead to discussing rare problems and specific solutions. It’s a pick up your pitchfork story. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/72 "2011-07-04T13:43:49Z")
If only the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had the foresight to see what college sophomores in 200 years would “have a real problem with.” ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/73 "2011-07-04T13:56:53Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > If only the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had the foresight to see what college sophomores in 200 years would “have a real problem with.” Guy, are you trying to imply I’m a college sophmore? Like my supposed youth would somehow invalidate my concerns. For the record, I’m 49, a veteran, I’ve been working since I was 16, and yeah, I have a real problem with sharing my streets with dangerous sociopaths who are out there because we seem unable to deal with them. Frankly, if you wanted to go back to 1787 justice, most criminals were hanged when they were caught. Not just the murderers, they hanged horse theives and rapists as well. The whole notion of locking the sociopaths up with other sociopaths, providing them with a weight room to bulk up, giving them law libraries so they can clog up the courts with petty lawsuits, and then letting them out because we ran out of money to keep them locked up… that’s a relatively recent thing. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/74 "2011-07-04T14:09:29Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > I can’t find a story that doesn’t link back to the New York Post article (eye roll), so at best I’d call this “pedophile in a rubber room” a story about which I have unanswered questions. > > But accepting it at face value, it’s the king of thing you can “be mad” about (fat lot of good it will do you), but its use is to foment blanket outrage over public education and teachers’ unions. This guy is the welfare mom in her Cadillac, Willie Horton, and the little girl who climbed into Bush’s lap and said “pweeze keep me safe fwom the tewwowists, Mistaw Buff.” It’s not necessarily representative of widespread issues, but it’s not supposed to lead to discussing rare problems and specific solutions. It’s a pick up your pitchfork story. So we should only talk about numbers when discussing the issue, and not the problems that underly those bad numbers, is this what you are saying? Are you trying to claim this story isn’t true? Or do you just hope it is. Let’s take it on face value. What possible good does it do ANYONE to pay this man for 14 years at $100,000 a year when no one in his right mind would ever let him back in a classroom with children again? And if the unions have made it so difficult to fire this guy, imagine all the other teachers who are just useless but not dangerous. The sad thing is Roland Pierre’s story is NOT an acception. > **[Exiled Queens teacher on payroll despite knocking up student](https://nypost.com/2010/02/07/exiled-queens-teacher-on-payroll-despite-knocking-up-student/)** > > Three strikes and he wasn’t out. At the beginning of his 32-year career as a math teacher in Queens, Francisco Olivares allegedly im pregnated and married a 16-year-old girl he had met when s… > [@](#): > > At the beginning of his 32-year career as a math teacher in Queens, Francisco Olivares allegedly im pregnated and married a 16-year-old girl he had met when she was a 13-year-old student at his Corona junior high, IS 61, The Post learned. > > He sexually molested two 12-year-old pupils a decade later and another student four years after that, the city Department of Education charged. > > But none of it kept Olivares, 60, from collecting his $94,154 salary. > > He hasn’t set foot in a classroom in seven years since beating criminal and disciplinary charges. Chancellor Joel Klein keeps Olivares in a “rubber room,” a district office where teachers accused of misconduct sit all day with nothing to do. and then you have this… > **[Firing tenured teachers can be a costly and tortuous task](https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-teachers3-2009may03-story.html)** > > A Times investigation finds the process so arduous that many principals don't even try, except in the very worst cases. Jettisoning a teacher solely because he or she can't teach is rare. > [@](#): > > - Building a case for dismissal is so time-consuming, costly and draining for principals and administrators that many say they don’t make the effort except in the most egregious cases. The vast majority of firings stem from blatant misconduct, including sexual abuse, other immoral or illegal behavior, insubordination or repeated violation of rules such as showing up on time. > > - Although districts generally press ahead with only the strongest cases, even these get knocked down more than a third of the time by the specially convened review panels, which have the discretion to restore teachers’ jobs even when grounds for dismissal are proved. > > - Jettisoning a teacher solely because he or she can’t teach is rare. In 80% of the dismissals that were upheld, classroom performance was not even a factor. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/75 "2011-07-04T14:24:38Z")
Recovering: The only “reputable” news org outside of those Koch Brother blogs is the NY Post. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb by calling the [NY Post a sensationalist rag](http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/rubber_room_dirty_old_man_t4OA6Bw25idPYynCnVJHyO). Officials would not explain what happened since, but sources said the criminal charges were apparently dismissed, and a DOE disciplinary case was “dropped on a technicality.” There is a presumption of innocent until proven guilty, and both the Post, the DA and the DOE had trouble proving the guilty part. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/76 "2011-07-04T14:43:07Z")
I think the important point which is being glossed over is “…seven years since **beating** criminal and disciplinary charges” (emphasis mine). As **LHOD** said, the problem isn’t with the union’s advocacy, it is with the administration’s inability to build a case. In this instance, the charges were _not proven_ to the satisfaction of the finder-of-fact. Under our system, that makes the accused “not guilty” (although possibly still not innocent). This moronic excuse > [@](#): > > Building a case for dismissal is so time-consuming, costly and draining for principals and administrators that many say they don’t make the effort except in the most egregious cases. is nothing more than a disgusting abandonment of responsibility by whoever is included in the “many”. Failure to document and inability to sustain evidence of mis-, mal-, or non-feasance on the part of an employee is at least mis-, mal-, or non-feasance on the part of the administrator. Whining “Oh poor me, I just don’t have the ti-i-i-i-me, otherwise you betcha, I’d have fired all those assholes, so don’t blame me, blame whoever stood up for them!!” is pathetic and demonstrates who _really_ deserves to be fired. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/77 "2011-07-04T14:44:50Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Recovering: The only “reputable” news org outside of those Koch Brother blogs is the NY Post. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb by calling the [NY Post a sensationalist rag](http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/rubber_room_dirty_old_man_t4OA6Bw25idPYynCnVJHyO). > > Officials would not explain what happened since, but sources said the criminal charges were apparently dismissed, and a DOE disciplinary case was “dropped on a technicality.” > > There is a presumption of innocent until proven guilty, and both the Post, the DA and the DOE had trouble proving the guilty part. I think you are making the mistake of confusing criminal guilt with prudent employment practices. No one thinks this guy should ever be put back into a classroom. Not even the union wants to climb up that hill. So, yeah, they couldn’t put him in jail (where he belongs) probably because the girl in question wouldn’t testify or something. But the guy sure as hell shouldn’t be collecting a salary. And if you can’t get rid of something like this, what about the less obvious cases. Like the “English Teacher” who doesn’t know how to structure a sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/78 "2011-07-04T14:47:11Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > They work for US, we don’t work for them. If they are buying influence on our dime, yeah, I think we need to be worried about that. It’s not your dime any more. Once the teacher is paid, it’s their dime and they can damn well do whatever they want with it. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/79 "2011-07-04T14:48:08Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > I think the important point which is being glossed over is “…seven years since **beating** criminal and disciplinary charges” (emphasis mine). > > As **LHOD** said, the problem isn’t with the union’s advocacy, it is with the administration’s inability to build a case. In this instance, the charges were _not proven_ to the satisfaction of the finder-of-fact. Under our system, that makes the accused “not guilty” (although possibly still not innocent). > > This moronic excuse is nothing more than a disgusting abandonment of responsibility by whoever is included in the “many”. Failure to document and inability to sustain evidence of mis-, mal-, or non-feasance on the part of an employee is at least mis-, mal-, or non-feasance on the part of the administrator. Whining “Oh poor me, I just don’t have the ti-i-i-i-me, otherwise you betcha, I’d have fired all those assholes, so don’t blame me, blame whoever stood up for them!!” is pathetic and demonstrates who _really_ deserves to be fired. Well, yeah, kind of. But the administrator has only so many hours in his day, and his job is not solely “finding the bad teachers and firing them”. There has to be a balance. Workers should have protection from bad bosses, but the enterprise/operation should have protections from destructive workers, and it should NOT take an Act of God to get rid of a teacher who beats children or molests them. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/80 "2011-07-04T14:49:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It’s not your dime any more. Once the teacher is paid, it’s their dime and they can damn well do whatever they want with it. So if I disapprove of the crappy job they are doing, I can stop paying my taxes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669.md?page=5)