# Fixing Education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669 "2011-07-03T00:29:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/121 "2011-07-05T12:42:49Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > The same way that every other company does it. Certain behaviors are grounds for termination. If you engage in these behaviors, you are subject to disciplianary action. Did you understand the question? I’m not asking what unions should do if their **employees** are accused. I’m asking what they should do if their **members** are accused. > [@](#): > > Then again, a rope and a tree out back is a good option, too, for these guys. My previous question, about why you hate America, stands. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/122 "2011-07-05T13:53:13Z")
Until parents learn that they are the prime reason their kids do poorly or well in school, the schools won’t get any better. ---
**Author:** ![crewface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@crewface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crewface)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/123 "2011-07-05T18:45:11Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Welcome, **crewface**. I am from Tennessee, home of Sequoyah, a very, very good teacher. Of the really good teachers I was honored to learn from, there was a common thread that far surpassed the subject matter of their courses. It was their infectious zeal for learning as they taught. Lateral thinking, cross examination of related subjects, off subject discussions, and the ability to delve into thought provoking detail made these beloved teachers almost entertainers. I have been late to many classes because these showboat performers stole the show and refused to relinquish their valuable hold on our minds. I had other teachers that should have worked in the government tag office as their damage to the customer served would not be the same at to a young mind yearning for knowledge. I posted two basic subjects that point out faults to our system. Some poser engineer bit at the bait and helped me demonstrate the end result of high level failure of our educations system, ignorance. He could not even keep his attention on the subject of our topic, “the education system”. Instead, defending himself from his own ignorance, attacked me. I have found this type of person is in every school locked in mind, job, and spirit. If you exemplify the characteristics I have found that makes an educator, I bow down before your greatness. You will leave your mark on the world instead of a petty bad taste in the mouth of society. ---
**Author:** ![crewface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@crewface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crewface)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/124 "2011-07-05T19:07:42Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Welcome, **crewface**. I am from Tennessee, home of Sequoyah, a very, very good teacher. I must agree that amongst educators, he was most amazing. He one time walked to Mexico to visit some displaced Cherokees. I had 2 Cherokee great grand mothers and have read his bio. That walking to Mexico might be a myth, but not his foresight that might have saved and integrated his people if not for our KILLER government saturated with racist greedy “for sale” politicians. He invented a written language and structure for his people. Of the posters here, I think you really understand my points. Now go out there and infect the minds of our youth to greatness but do not cross the Teachers Union as they will destroy you and stifle any deviation from their controlled assault on free thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/125 "2011-07-05T23:41:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Did you understand the question? I’m not asking what unions should do if their **employees** are accused. I’m asking what they should do if their **members** are accused. > > My previous question, about why you hate America, stands. Guy, I’m not in love with a system that let’s people who hurt kids get away with because they have slick lawyers and dumb jurors, both of which we need to get rid of, too. Unions should stand aside when their members are caught doing something that beyond the pale… unless they have compelling evidence it’s a bad charge. Which clearly is NOT the case in the ones I cited. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/126 "2011-07-06T02:12:19Z")
> [@crewface](#): > > Why I chose Native American as an example of a teaching subject has nothing to do with Black History month that lasts the whole year except it is a social agenda that replaces actual history, all year long, every day, every subject, by every teacher who does not want to be “phased out”. It is because of the enormity of the subject. Now, how many of you Government teachers can get this post translated into Spanish tomorrow in your classroom? Now, how many of you can get this translated into Cherokee, Apache, Crow, Seminole, Blackfoot, etc. Now, how many of you teachers care why? Why is Spanish in every classroom and school in America and the Native American Indian languages are considered dead languages? Do the Mexicans living here and speaking Spanish, look Spanish? Nope, they are what is left of the Native Indians converted by KILLERS. If you want to enlighten young minds, you will not gloss over an earlier holocaust and teach how bad the Germans were. You will not repent your GUILT over Native Indian HOLOCAUST by erasing it and concentrating on “Look how we are making things even to the Blacks!”. Until teachers address our history honestly, instead of quacking out the latest liberally conceived social agenda textbook, we are doomed to be the Police state the cold war was all about. Most teacher are dumb as hell, even on their professed subject. We need educators, not government propaganda machines. We get it. If anyone got screwed worse than African Americans it was the American Indian. The Nazi Holocaust was mild compared to the genocide of American Indians but as some point you have to try to pull yourself forward despite the weight of history. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/127 "2011-07-06T02:14:02Z")
> [@crewface](#): > > A machine is something that provides an advantage in power or speed. There is no lever in a bicycle pump, just pistons. It is hydraulic/pneumatic action of piston size differential that provides the advantage. There does not have to be a lever in a hydraulic system as the only things that move are the 2 pistons. Same size, no advantage. Moving parts, no lever, no inclined plane qualifying it as an irreducible machine of only 3 in existence. Now I will bet you will rely on your education to spout out the axle, wheel, screw, and anything else but they are all complications of the inclined plane and lever. I am a tool/machine designer and call BUNK on our stupid education system that teaches at 66 2/3 speed. If you have taught science or whatnot that did put up the chart with the “six” basic machines and left off the ignored bicycle pump, you might need remedial information that you have just received. Now think a while and then look it up in a physics book printed before 1970. No need to thank me, it was my pleasure, but it, and the hidden/banned topic of Native American Holocaust, scream the failure of our education propaganda machine. Now if you can read this, go thank a Toolmaker. > **[Simple machine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine)** > > A simple machine is a mechanical device that changes the direction or magnitude of a force. In general, they can be defined as the simplest mechanisms that use mechanical advantage (also called leverage) to multiply force. Usually the term refers to the six classical simple machines that were defined by Renaissance scientists: > A simple machine uses a single applied force to do work against a single load force. Ignoring friction losses, the work done on the load is equal to the work done by the... ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/128 "2011-07-06T02:18:33Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Guy, I’m not in love with a system that let’s people who hurt kids get away with because they have slick lawyers and dumb jurors, both of which we need to get rid of, too. > > Unions should stand aside when their members are caught doing something that beyond the pale… unless they have compelling evidence it’s a bad charge. Which clearly is NOT the case in the ones I cited. So you’re in favor, then, of a system which assumes guilt and in which innocence must be proven; I see. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/129 "2011-07-06T10:24:52Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So you’re in favor, then, of a system which assumes guilt and in which innocence must be proven; I see. > > :rolleyes: Innocent until proven guilty is a fallacy. It’s one of those nice things we tell ourselves, but let’s be honest, once the police or prosecutors decide that you are “the guy”, they treat you like they’ve caught you until a court acquits you. And while what Public School Teachers are doing is TRULY CRIMINAL to the kids and the country, why on earth do you want to treat them like perps. Remember the cops who beat Rodney King? They got two trials. First one they got acquitted, then the malcontents rioted, so they gave them a second bite at the apple in Federal Court. Well, even in the SECOND trial, two of the cops were found not guilty. Did the LAPD rehire them. Nooooooooope. Same thing here. Doesn’t matter if these dirtbags were acquitted or not. They still don’t belong around kids, and they still shouldn’t be sucking at the teet of the taxpayer. Except in liberal land, where apparently this sort of abuse is okay as long as the NEA and AFT keep endorsing Democrats and writing them big checks. Who cares if your kid is as dumb as a rock after 13 years with these people? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/130 "2011-07-06T11:22:13Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Innocent until proven guilty is a fallacy. It’s one of those nice things we tell ourselves, but let’s be honest, once the police or prosecutors decide that you are “the guy”, they treat you like they’ve caught you until a court acquits you. “Innocent until proven guilty” is a legal principle. The fact that this principle may be compromised by the police department doesn’t make the principle a fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/131 "2011-07-06T11:23:38Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > And while what Public School Teachers are doing is TRULY CRIMINAL to the kids and the country, Seriously. This is what you said. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/132 "2011-07-06T11:31:11Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Seriously. This is what you said. Yeah, that’s what I really believe… Sorry, saw way too many kids when I was a SGT in the Army who were fine products of public education, and couldnt’ read, write, do math, knew basic history, and were in no way, shape or form ready for the job market or college. (which is why many of them joined the Army. It certainly wasn’t for the food and accomedations!) > [@](#): > > “Innocent until proven guilty” is a legal principle. The fact that this principle may be compromised by the police department doesn’t make the principle a fallacy. No, I think that’s society in general, not just the cops. I think we are all capable of looking at things and making up our own minds. When they found that Casey whatshername “not guilty” yesterday, most of us in the “real world” were shocked that this woman got off. The jurors must have been on drugs or something. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/133 "2011-07-06T11:43:12Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > I think we are all capable of looking at things and making up our own minds. At least the second one. The first one, a lot of us need to work on that. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/134 "2011-07-06T11:58:54Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > At least the second one. The first one, a lot of us need to work on that. Good point. let’s not forget, this Jury was sequestered and didn’t get to hear a lot of stuff the rest of us were hearing. So they were making up their minds on LESS information, not more. The same with that other fine paragon of the American Justice system, the OJ trial. Come on, the problem with out justice system is that the inmates have taken over the asylum. The same can be said of our education system, come to think of it. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/135 "2011-07-06T12:14:11Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Frankly, looking at what is going on in Greece, I’m not sure I want to emulate the European system. Good thing that there isn’t a “European system” regarding this then. Different countries in the EU handle it different ways. There are some EU-wide directives, but ultimately employment law changes radically from country to country. > [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > I have no problem with unions that defend employees when they should be defended. I have a big problem where incompetence is not only tolerated by vigorously advocated. But who gets to decide who “should” be defended? > [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > As I understand the European system, though, you guys have something close to school choice. At they do in Germany, where the Lutheran and Catholic Churches are still involved in education, and the government pays for it. In short, if parents aren’t happy with a school, they have a choice to go to a different one. Depends on a lot of things. Location, for example. In the town I grew up in there was basically one choice. Well, either that or go private (which my family did for both their children). In the UK, where I was schooled, different schools have “catchment areas” which you have to be in to be able to send your kid there. It is increasingly common for parents to move house to be in the catchment area for a perceived good school. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/136 "2011-07-06T12:58:11Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Guy, I’m not in love with a system that let’s people who hurt kids get away with because they have slick lawyers and dumb jurors, both of which we need to get rid of, too. > > Unions should stand aside when their members are caught doing something that beyond the pale… unless they have compelling evidence it’s a bad charge. Which clearly is NOT the case in the ones I cited. So either you’re suggesting that unions rephrase their policy regarding whom to defend as “Unions should stand aside when their members are caught doing something that beyond the pale… unless they have compelling evidence it’s a bad charge,” which is a completely moronic way to phrase a policy that holds legal weight, or else you’re avoiding my question yet again. The question isn’t trivial. Unions take hudreds of dollars a year from every teacher, and they promise, in exchange for that money, to do certain things for the teachers. Those promises are legally binding. The current situation is that they promise to advocate on behalf of teachers, full-stop, under the understanding that it’s administration that makes the final call on whether to retain or fire a teacher. That’s a totally reasonable approach, even if it leads to their advocating on behalf of some real scumbags sometimes: a scumbag who puts his best face forward with union help is still a scumbag, and a boss who’s not a lazy craven can still fire the scumbag. Your approach is for unions to take the money from teachers and then to “stand aside when their members are caught doing something that beyond the pale… unless they have compelling evidence it’s a bad charge,” which is legally indefensible and would lead to unions being sued out of existence the first time someone was falsely but convincingly accused and saw the union, who had taken all their money, refuse to advocate on their behalf. Now, maybe that’s your goal; maybe you want to get rid of unions in order to help out your Republican buddies. But at least be honest about it if it is. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/137 "2011-07-07T00:51:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So either you’re suggesting that unions rephrase their policy regarding whom to defend as “Unions should stand aside when their members are caught doing something that beyond the pale… unless they have compelling evidence it’s a bad charge,” which is a completely moronic way to phrase a policy that holds legal weight, or else you’re avoiding my question yet again. (snip, because it’s boring) > > Now, maybe that’s your goal; maybe you want to get rid of unions in order to help out your Republican buddies. But at least be honest about it if it is. Actually, I grew up in a union home. But all your sophistry aside, which is all this is. Let’s put it to the test. Would you want YOUR child put into a room alone with this teacher. Yes or no? If your answer is, “Yup, I’d totally leave my kid along with this teacher because I am SOOOOOO in love with the notion of “innocent until proven guilty” and “Unions should defend anyone who pays dues” that I am perfectly willing to hope for a good result.” I’d like to hear your reasoning why. And if your answer is no, then why would you want to inflict this guy on ANYONE else’s child? Now, if you are going to claim that unions can’t practice that kind of judgement and discretion, then I think we have an issue here and maybe it is time to get rid of unions. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/138 "2011-07-07T01:03:31Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Now, if you are going to claim that unions can’t practice that kind of judgement and discretion, then I think we have an issue here and maybe it is time to get rid of unions. > **[False dilemma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma)** > > A false dilemma, also referred to as false dichotomy or false binary, is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. The source of the fallacy lies not in an invalid form of inference but in a false premise. This premise has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives, presenting the viewer with... ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/139 "2011-07-07T01:26:02Z")
> **[Recovering Republican, Please Step Into the Hallway for a Moment](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=615311)** > > Please be quiet a moment and don’t give me that look. Is that gum in your mouth? Did you swallow it? Don’t make me use the ruler, young man. Now, you’ve been very active in class and I appreciate it, but your behavior is borderline disruptive. Maybe... ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669/140 "2011-07-07T01:32:28Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Let’s put it to the test. > > Would you want YOUR child put into a room alone with this teacher. Yes or no? No. > [@](#): > > And if your answer is no, then why would you want to inflict this guy on ANYONE else’s child? I don’t. Now the question for you. If I type that “I don’t” in giant red letters, will you pay attention to it this time and stop making this idiotic straw-man that I’ve explicitly denied several times now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fixing-education/587669.md?page=8)