# FL canvassing boards disenfranchised African American Republicans? (times 50) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2001, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345 "2001-11-14T17:17:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/21 "2001-11-15T05:25:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Is that _all_ you were doing? No; where did I say it was all I was doing? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/22 "2001-11-15T14:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > More precisely, it was their conclusion that crappy equipment caused the spoilage. Actually, they go to great lengths to [say the exact opposite.](http://www.usccr.gov/vote2000/stdraft1/ch1.htm) > [@](#): > > In a very small part, the county-level relationship between race and rates of ballot rejection can be attributed to the fact that a greater percentage of African American registered voters live in counties with technologies that produce the greatest rates of rejected ballots > [@](#): > > As illustrated in appendix II-B, within the group of counties using punch card or optical scan technology recorded centrally there is a strong, statistically significant relationship between race and rejected ballots. This correlation between race and ballot rejection is even stronger than the correlation between race and ballot rejection for all counties > [@](#): > > When the counties using the technology with the lowest ballot rejection rates are examined, the correlation between race and ballot spoilage is substantially reduced but not eliminated. There remains a statistically significant relationship between race and the rate at which ballots are spoiled even when the best technology is used. > [@](#): > > In summary, while the type of technology used accounts for some of the relationship between race and the rate at which ballots are rejected, there remains a statistically significant relationship even after education is considered and the type of voting system is taken into account. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/23 "2001-11-15T18:36:04Z")
**Gadarene** said: > [@](#): > > “Why december,” he said wonderingly, “Whatever do you think could account for this correlation? Why would blacks spoil more ballots than whites, if not for faulty equipment?” Geez, **Gad**. If you’re going to accuse **december** of being a racist, go ahead and do it. These snide comments don’t reflect well on you. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/24 "2001-11-15T23:34:23Z")
**Why did CBS News Get it Wrong?** **Izzy** – thanks for finding all those quotes. Those are the ones I was alluding to last night. Compare \*\* Izzy’s\*\* quotes from Allan Lichtman’s statistical analysis to the CBS News report posted by **minty green** about 8 posts up. What an amazing difference. CBS said: > [@](#): > > The report said thousands of Floridians, especially black voters, were deprived of their votes by outdated equipment, improper purging of voter rolls and inadequate access to voting booths. I don’t know whether Lichtman’s analysis was correct or not. However, I’m struck that the CBS News report missed this key point. Where did they go wrong? CBS probably relied upon the press release and Executive Summary, rather than read the actual analysis. The Executive Summary totally omitted this point. IMHO the Executive Summary was a partisan statement, designed to produce a certain public impact (and, IMHO it succeeded.) Unfortunately, accuracy and fairness took a back seat to politics. I also wonder if CBS was afraid that printing such a statement could get them accused of racism. (as happened here. :() Let me be clear. IMHO the denial of embarrassing facts about particular groups of people disserves everyone, _including those groups._ Real progress comes from facing reality and dealing with it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/25 "2001-11-16T00:14:31Z")
I agree that there is nothing embarrassing to anyone about pointing out that a population group with a disproportionately large number of first-time voters also had a disproportionately large number of spoiled ballots. However, I think the following comment is somewhat too sweeping: > [@](#): > > The report said thousands of Floridians, especially black voters, were deprived of their votes by outdated equipment, improper purging of voter rolls and inadequate access to voting booths. _I don’t know whether Lichtman’s analysis was correct or not. However, I’m struck that the CBS News report missed this key point. Where did they go wrong?_ Where do you get the idea that they “got it wrong”? They were discussing the fact that the report concluded that many Florida voters, especially blacks, were unfairly denied the right to vote because of various systematic flaws in voting and related procedures. That is not in any way invalidated by pointing out that black voters **also** disproportionately spoiled ballots. The report that **Izzy** linked to explicitly states in its fifth paragraph that “Credible evidence shows many Floridians were denied the right to vote. Analysis of the testimony and evidence gathered by the Commission show that these denials fell most squarely on persons of color.” Those are the chief conclusions of the report, and it was perfectly legitimate for a news story about the report to focus on them. Your complaint that the news story did not also emphasize the fact that there was a correlation between race and ballot spoilage is, IMHO, pretty much beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/26 "2001-11-16T00:56:43Z")
**december:** > [@](#): > > IMHO the denial of embarrassing facts about particular groups of people disserves everyone, including those groups. Which group of people? First-time voters, or blacks? If the latter, what embarrassing facts? ( **Necros** , note how politely I ask.) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/27 "2001-11-16T01:49:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > \*\ ***december:** > > > [@](#): > > > > IMHO the denial of embarrassing facts about particular groups of people disserves everyone, including those groups. > > Which group of people? First-time voters, or blacks? > > If the latter, what embarrassing facts? > ( **Necros** , note how politely I ask.) \*\* Gee, **Gadarene** , when I saw your name on a new post, I hoped it was an apology. I think you owe me one. You know very well what “embarassing fact.” The fact that Allan Lichman’s study found that a disproportionate percentage of Black Florida voters spoiled their ballots, and that the percentage cannot be accounted for by voting equipment. Apparently this fact was too embarrassing to be included in the Executive Summary or reported by CBS. I presume your shot at me was a reponse to my allusion to this fact. The number of Black voters in Florida took an enormous jump in 2000. If Lichtman’s conclusion is correct (which BTW I don’t necessarily concede), the reason could well be the huge number of new voters. However, I won’t hide behind that PC explanation. Plausible as it is, it’s not a part of the study. Lichtman’s study appears to contain useful information. It should be understood and analyzed as a guide to action. We shouldn’t be content to simply find some comfortable explanation. It behooves people of good will to figure out what the real problems are and deal with them. E.g., if the cause of the problem is new voters, then voter training may be an answer. If the cause is weak inner city public education, then vouchers may be an answer. If the real problem is some sort of racist action by some voting officials, then severe enforcement measures are called for. I hope this post helps clear up where I’m coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/28 "2001-11-16T02:38:01Z")
I’m very, very sorry, **december**. ☹ > [@](#): > > If Lichtman’s conclusion is correct (which BTW I don’t necessarily concede), the reason could well be the huge number of new voters. However, I won’t hide behind that PC explanation. Why is that a “PC” explanation? > [@](#): > > If the cause is weak inner city public education, then vouchers may be an answer. Your slip is showing. Of the ten Florida counties with the highest percentage of black voters, nine had ballot spoilage rates higher than the statewide average–but five of those nine are rural counties, and three others are in moderate metropolitan areas (Tallahassee, Pensacola, and Jacksonville). Only one, Miami-Dade, is an urban county. What’s more, the one county of the ten in which the spoilage rates were _not_ above average is Leon, which encompasses part of Tallahassee itself. (See Table 1-1 of report for this stuff) So I guess “weak inner-city public education” probably isn’t one of the possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/29 "2001-11-16T02:57:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > > > [@](#): > > > > …the reason could well be the huge number of new voters. However, I won’t hide behind that PC explanation. > > Why is that a “PC” explanation? My understanding of political correcness is that it’s not PC to imply that African-Americans may be at fault. YMMV. An explanation in terms of number of new voters avoids the hint of criticism. Thanks for digging out the geographic data. It was interesting. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/30 "2001-11-16T03:30:23Z")
[U.S. Commission on Civil Rights](http://www.usccr.gov/nwsrel01.htm#Miami02) again: > [@](#): > > The Commission cited other problems in Florida which prevented voters from exercising their franchise, including the assignment of many African Americans to polling sites that lacked sufficient resources to confirm voter eligibility; failure to process voter registration applications under the “motor voter” law in a timely manner; use of defective and complicated ballots that caused many “overvotes” and “undervotes”; early closing of polling places; relocation of polling places without notice; use of old and defective election equipment in poor precincts; failure to provide requested language assistance to Haitian American and Latino American voters; and failure to ensure access for voters with disabilities. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/31 "2001-11-16T04:25:49Z")
No need to concede anything that is “bloody well obvious”, **minty**. Only problem is that that which is bloody well obvious is not that which we are discussing. No one denies that equipment was one of the reasons for the high number of spoiled ballots by minorities. The very quotes that I cited deal with this issue. What we are discussing however, is if this is the explanation for the correlation between race and spoiled ballots. The CRC went to lengths to say that this was only a small part of it. Again: > [@](#): > > **In a very small part** , the county-level relationship between race and rates of ballot rejection can be attributed to the fact that a greater percentage of African American registered voters live in counties with technologies that produce the greatest rates of rejected ballots I assumed that you had meant to say that the reason for Blacks giving a high percentage of spoiled ballots was equipment - maybe you only meant a very small part of the reason, whatever. (Upon further reflection, it occurs to me that maybe “old and defective equipment” is not the same thing as “technologies that produce the greatest rates of rejected ballots” - it doesn’t seem like that to me, however). In any event, concede or don’t concede, your choice, as always. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/32 "2001-11-16T05:32:36Z")
Any analysis of spoiled ballots vs. race is meaningless if it doesn’t discard (or otherwise account for) Duval County, which had a two page presidential ballot with explict instructions to vote on each page. As I said in the other thread where this was brought up, I think the whole thing is another example of Lott’s dishonesty with numbers. It’s easy to come up with with huge percentages when dealing with tiny data sets, but it means nothing, all data sets have anomolies within the noise. GIGO ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/33 "2001-11-16T22:38:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > Any analysis of spoiled ballots vs. race is meaningless if it doesn’t discard (or otherwise account for) Duval County, which had a two page presidential ballot with explict instructions to vote on each page. I said I was unwilling to concede the certainty of Lichtman’s conclusion that Black votes were disproportionately spoiled. **Tejota’s** post helps explain why. In simple terms, Lichtman’s study observed that districts with higher percentages of Black voters tended to have higher percentages of spoiled votes. The conclusion was that Black votes were more likely to be spoiled. However, individual differences, like the one pointed out by **Tejota** , render Lichtman’s conclusion less than certain, although it may well be correct. **Minty** , as you know, I had contended that the CCR Report was a dishonest representation of Lichtman’s study – a study I considered not totally conclusive. You may well be correct to disagree with me. However, from my POV using the CCR Report as evidence is circular reasoning. I’m questioning the CCR Report. Obviously the CCR Report agrees with itself. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345/34 "2001-11-17T01:18:23Z")
Substitute “John Lott” for “CCR Report” in that last paragraph and you’ve pretty much captured my sentiments too, **december**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-canvassing-boards-disenfranchised-african-american-republicans-times-50/93345.md?page=1)