# FL School Board Member Can't Answer Any Math Questions on FCAT **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172 "2011-12-14T15:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/41 "2011-12-14T20:30:57Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > WTF does any of that have to do with making decisions on hiring staff, or deciding that the bus needs replacing, or any of hundreds of niggling little details I remember my Mom working on when she was president of the town school board? For fucks sake, I am truly shitty at math, I couldn’t prove a triangle has 3 sides on a good day [exaggerating, but geometry theorums simply just do not register in my mind, give me the tools and I can draw anything you want, but fuck if I know why taking a ruler, a compass and squiggling them around gives me a specific shape and I spent 7 years as a machinist and was able to do my job quite well, thanks.] Let me summarize. You are wrong. I’m not saying that managers don’t need people skills, but there is a lot of quantitative decisions. If you are buying a bus, you have to balance the maintenance cost versus buying a new bus. You figure out if you are adding routes or deleting them. There are a lot of numerical decisions that have to be made. Maybe she was a great people person and she delegated all those decisions, but somebody was making the decisions. I’m frankly skeptical of your claim that you were a satisfactory machinist. Were you working on an assembly line? The machinists working in the machine shop for the engineering department were not exactly math shy. Their job was a lot more complicated than running a drill press or a lathe. Of course, there is a similar hierarchy in electricians. My father was a master electrician. He did a lot of algebra for his job. He would call the electricians that just did their job by rote as ‘wire twisters’. A master electrician would have to sign off on their work. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/42 "2011-12-14T20:37:21Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Let me summarize. You are wrong. I’m not saying that managers don’t need people skills, but there is a lot of quantitative decisions. If you are buying a bus, you have to balance the maintenance cost versus buying a new bus. You figure out if you are adding routes or deleting them. There are a lot of numerical decisions that have to be made. Maybe she was a great people person and she delegated all those decisions, but somebody was making the decisions. Maybe, but most of those numerical decisions involve basic arithmetic, and maybe compounding interest. Being “shitty at math” doesn’t really mean someone is completely innumerate. The math you need to deal with most basic financial decisions are a pretty small part of whats on FCAT like tests. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/43 "2011-12-14T21:04:14Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Let me summarize. You are wrong. I’m not saying that managers don’t need people skills, but there is a lot of quantitative decisions. If you are buying a bus, you have to balance the maintenance cost versus buying a new bus. You figure out if you are adding routes or deleting them. There are a lot of numerical decisions that have to be made. Maybe she was a great people person and she delegated all those decisions, but somebody was making the decisions. > > I’m frankly skeptical of your claim that you were a satisfactory machinist. Were you working on an assembly line? The machinists working in the machine shop for the engineering department were not exactly math shy. Their job was a lot more complicated than running a drill press or a lathe. Of course, there is a similar hierarchy in electricians. My father was a master electrician. He did a lot of algebra for his job. He would call the electricians that just did their job by rote as ‘wire twisters’. A master electrician would have to sign off on their work. Give me a machine shop and a blueprint, and I can make it. I did not say that I was math shy, I am crappy at math but I can do it. I am just not into bullcrap like the whole theorum crap for geometry. Give me a compas, a straight edge, and I can draw any damn thing you need, but dont ask me _why_ if I tweak this this way and sketch that the other way I end up with a funktastic diagram with little arcs and arrows and that crap. [actually a lot of old machinists can draw and interpret the blueprints, but mainly because they worked in the shops since they were 14-15-16 years old and learned to do it on the job, not in some fancy class - though I did have 3 semesters of blueprint reading, drawing and production way back in the dark ages.] To me this [crap](http://regentsprep.org/regents/math/geometry/GPB/theorems.htm) is all common sense, just don’t ask me to try and explain any of it unless you put a piece of paper and tools in front of me and I can just draw something and point at it. I am the dumb schmuck that when some guy runs around in a towel dripping screaming Hot Damn!!11! I wonder why he thinks that something you can look at and see any day is something wonderful and miraculous. I’ll just wander back to the shop and produce another test bench for the Chlorine Institute … [though since this time of year was alway the dead time, production wise, I used to rebuild car engines in the shop with the other guys. I really miss my old shops =(] ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/44 "2011-12-14T21:09:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m in my early fifties and got 5 of 7 answers correct. No trig required. A bit of remembering geometry (“When two parallel lines are cut by a transversal, the alternate interior angles are equal.”) But that just made it quicker; a bit of reasoning could substitute for the theorem quite nicely. > > I don’t understand how the year 1813 is a better answer than 1822. In my reading of the graph, the best answer would have been 1818, just a shade below 1820. A closer look at the graph shows that in 1810, the population passed the 7.5M mark. By 1820 it was already at 10M (and c. 11M in 1822). Don’t feel too bad; When I looked at Q4, I read _angle ACB_ as _angle ABC_, and I answered 60[sup]o[/sup]. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/45 "2011-12-14T21:17:28Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > And yeah, I have no idea what the palmetto one was going for, I estimated 40 per square and something like 20+ squares and figured 1000 was the closest answer. Hell, I might as well spoiler this. You correctly counted 40 palmettos per benchmark square, butyou overestimated the number of benchmark squares. The “panhandle” portion of the park is slightly more than four benchmark squares; the lower portion is about double the size of the panhandle; and the raggedy bottom of the park adds a bit less than one more. So approx. 14 \* 40 = [closer to 650 than any of the other answers]. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/46 "2011-12-14T21:23:44Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > I am not at all sure your appraisal is correct. > > Even if it is my comments stand about the training our K1-12 educators are getting, > and the need to make a good, tough audit of it. My comments would also stand > regarding Mr. Roach’s fitness as an educator, although the grounds might have to be > shifted from his intellectual shortcomings to his ethical shortcomings. Worst. Haiku. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![TheUthaBrutha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@TheUthaBrutha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheUthaBrutha)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/47 "2011-12-14T21:24:20Z")
As my boss is fond of saying, “I don’t have to know that, that’s why you have a job.” ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/48 "2011-12-14T21:25:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Hmm…okay, that said, I just read his reasoning on why the test is problematic, and it’s pretty persuasive to me. He’s suggesting, not that it’s okay to be stupid, but that the intelligence the test assesses isn’t the intelligence needed to get ahead in the world. > \ A-ha! The test, that particular test, is not designed to assess _intelligence_. It was designed to assess student mastery of the Sunshine State Standards (to which I would link, but that test is 5 years old and the State of Florida has adopted new, slightly more rigorous standards beginning in 2007, so any link I would provide to you would be the wrong standards for this test). The Sunshine State Standards (now the Next Generation Sunshine State Standards) are a list of benchmarks: skills in each content area that students should be able to master by the time they complete the course. There is no mathematics beyond basic Geometry even on the NGSSS FCAT. Any tenth grader who took Algebra and Geometry in Florida public schools should be able to pass that exam. As many of you pointed out, it’s not that difficult. But asserting that this test assesses intelligence in some way is suggesting the wrong tool is being used for the job. If you want to assess intelligence, you administer a Wechsler or Stanford-Binet IQ test. Any education administrator should _know_ that. Full Disclosure: I work for the contractor who is paid by the State of Florida to develop the test. In fact, I was on the team that produced the Sample Test Materials, which some of you may have already discovered on the FCAT web site. Any questions for me? (And I’m already sorry I asked.) ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/49 "2011-12-14T21:33:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > His suggestion seems to be that we reverse-engineer the test. Get some people successful in a broad range of fields to answer a broad range of questions. The ones that are answered correctly by people who have the sort of jobs we want our students to have are the questions we ought to put on the test. That seems reasonable. His suggestion is born of ignorance. :: heavy sigh :: Again, he should know this, but for the rest of you… The Sunshine State Standards were not created in a vacuum by little green elves. They were created by committees of Florida TEACHERS who are actually, you know, teaching material in real live classrooms, every single day in Florida. The FL DOE Curriculum department meets with these committees, examines the curriculum, and set the standards. The standards are available for public review – posted on the web for ANYONE to examine, anytime – for at least a year before they are adopted by the State Board of Education. FCAT assesses student achievement of the standards. It appears this particular administrator actually takes issue with the standards, but it’s likely that some of his own teachers participated on committees to design those standards based on what is actually happening in their classrooms. He could have fired off e-mails about the rigor of those standards for a year before the state actually adopted them. He could have turned up at DOE in Tallahassee and set up meetings with the people who are responsible for the test. He could have done a lot of things. Instead, he’s coming up with pie-in-the-sky suggestions that are not grounded in psychometric theory, nor are they based on any kind of large-scale assessment theory. He has no idea how this test, or its questions, are even developed. I doubt he’s set foot inside a public school classroom since his own high school graduation. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/50 "2011-12-14T21:37:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Hell, I might as well spoiler this. You correctly counted 40 palmettos per benchmark square, butyou overestimated the number of benchmark squares. The “panhandle” portion of the park is slightly more than four benchmark squares; the lower portion is about double the size of the panhandle; and the raggedy bottom of the park adds a bit less than one more. So approx. 14 \* 40 = [closer to 650 than any of the other answers]. Yeah, I figured it out. To me that’s not a math problem… it’s really more of a spacial awareness kind of thing. No scientist, engineer, or mathematician would display the data that way. If you had a real map and needed to do that you would actually attempt to measure the area in some way, or at least cut out an overlay or something. Meh, I’m just bitter because I didn’t get them all right. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/51 "2011-12-14T21:39:30Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Worst. Haiku. Ever. Worst post to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/52 "2011-12-14T21:43:24Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > You have emphasized a very important point here, but unfortunatley you have badly misinterpreted its import: Worse-than-chance scores do not show an inability to “guess well,” but rather tend to show a deliberate attempt to do poorly on the exam. The administrator at issue has long been an opponent of high-stakes testing—which may be a valid position (I express no opinion on the matter), but I don’t think dishonesty is a good approach in making one’s argument. Not necessarily. When I took the American Chemical Society final exam for organic chemistry there were two students out of 20 in my class who scored worse than random. The professor said the test was famous for that, and that the possible answers on the multiple choice questions were selected to mislead by offering extremely plausible but incorrect options. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/53 "2011-12-15T01:03:51Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Maybe, but most of those numerical decisions involve basic arithmetic, and maybe compounding interest. Being “shitty at math” doesn’t really mean someone is completely innumerate. The math you need to deal with most basic financial decisions are a pretty small part of whats on FCAT like tests. We aren’t talking about figuring 15% on a restaurant check. Figuring out whether to replace a bus or keep maintaining the existing bus isn’t simple arithmetic. You need to amortize the new bus versus maintenance on the old bus. In a big organization I need to figure out if I need more mechanics if I have a lot of old buses. I actually learned something about making those kind of decisions when I was taking accounting. Shucks, when I took the defense inventory management training class we spent quite of bit of time discussing whether to replace track shoes versus replacing the whole track on tanks. Apparently that decision worked out to millions of dollars a year in maintenance costs, but you have to balance it against readiness. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/54 "2011-12-15T02:06:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > (seriously, that palmetto question is the kind of thing that a real scientist would look at and slap its creator. Who on earth would represent their data in such a stupid format?) Actually this is a quite a practical example in Florida. When you are trying to figure out how many pallets you need to order when you resod your yard. Instead of palmetto trees you need the number of square yards of sod per pallet. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/55 "2011-12-15T02:43:27Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Give me a machine shop and a blueprint, and I can make it. I did not say that I was math shy, I am crappy at math but I can do it. I am just not into bullcrap like the whole theorum crap for geometry. Give me a compas, a straight edge, and I can draw any damn thing you need, but dont ask me _why_ if I tweak this this way and sketch that the other way I end up with a funktastic diagram with little arcs and arrows and that crap. [actually a lot of old machinists can draw and interpret the blueprints, but mainly because they worked in the shops since they were 14-15-16 years old and learned to do it on the job, not in some fancy class - though I did have 3 semesters of blueprint reading, drawing and production way back in the dark ages.] You need to look at the exam. It is all applied mathematics. There is none of the theorem proving in it. Most of the stuff is as practical as what a surveyor does. My dad didn’t need to understand Ohm law, but he needed to apply it every day. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/56 "2011-12-15T02:50:27Z")
> [@TheUthaBrutha](#): > > As my boss is fond of saying, “I don’t have to know that, that’s why you have a job.” And if the schools stop producing people that can do your job, he can always go back to hitting rocks together. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/57 "2011-12-15T03:04:22Z")
7 for 7 on math, woo-hoo. Of course, I have degrees in Engineering and Commerce, so I like math. Question 6 was borderline unfair, though, requiring the student eyeball the diagram and make a best-guess. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/58 "2011-12-15T03:32:48Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Actually this is a quite a practical example in Florida. When you are trying to figure out how many pallets you need to order when you resod your yard. Instead of palmetto trees you need the number of square yards of sod per pallet. Sure you do. But that doesn’t pertain to what I’m saying. The problem with the graph as a representation of the data is that: -The symbols within the sample were placed semirandomly (as trees really would be). This placement served no clear purpose, especially because of the next item: -Each symbol, instead of representing 1 tree or 10 trees, represented 4 trees, a weird number. If the symbols were where actual trees occurred (accounting for their weird placement), they should have represented 1 tree each. If they were going to represent some number besides 1, they should have been arranged in neat rows–and probably should have represented 10 trees each, since there were 40 trees total. -The lengths of the sides of the sample area weren’t described. -The area of the total polygon wasn’t described. For your yard, you might get something saying, “Each pallet has 100 [or whatever] square meters.” You’d then go measure your yard. The problem’s graphic was deliberately obfuscated. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/59 "2011-12-15T04:12:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sure you do. But that doesn’t pertain to what I’m saying. The problem with the graph as a representation of the data is that: > -The symbols within the sample were placed semirandomly (as trees really would be). This placement served no clear purpose, especially because of the next item: > -Each symbol, instead of representing 1 tree or 10 trees, represented 4 trees, a weird number. If the symbols were where actual trees occurred (accounting for their weird placement), they should have represented 1 tree each. If they were going to represent some number besides 1, they should have been arranged in neat rows–and probably should have represented 10 trees each, since there were 40 trees total. > -The lengths of the sides of the sample area weren’t described. > -The area of the total polygon wasn’t described. > > For your yard, you might get something saying, “Each pallet has 100 [or whatever] square meters.” You’d then go measure your yard. > > The problem’s graphic was deliberately obfuscated. When I did it for my yard, I didn’t measure the yard. I took the plat map to figure the area of the front yard and then subtracted out the area for the driveway and the sidewalk. Measuring the yard directly when the longest tape I have is 25 feet would have been a pain. If I was doing this with pencil and paper I only need to tell if the 650 or 1000 answers are correct, so I can ignore the curved edges. I would mark the length of the square on the side of a piece of paper and measure the length and height of the two sections. It would be easy to tell if the park was closer to 14 squares or 25. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172/60 "2011-12-15T05:01:52Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > With a nod to Matt Groening: > Those who can’t do, teach. Yeah, and he seemed to hate all of his teachers. I really resent this quote everytime I see it. It’s not fair. Someone has to teach kids. We’re not all idiots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fl-school-board-member-cant-answer-any-math-questions-on-fcat/606172.md?page=4)