# Flag Abuse **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925 "2001-12-04T23:54:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/21 "2001-12-05T05:18:49Z")
Stop arguing with the politically incorrect idiot. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/22 "2001-12-05T05:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > \*\*Everything we’re talking about is unbelievably arbitrary, and relying on all these rules for patriotism is myopic. The idea is to actually _be_ patriotic, not make sure the people in the know _think_ you’re patriotic. \*\* My point is that, following Sept. 11th, the flag has been applied thoughtlessly to every surface. It’s a great display of the shallowest sort of patriotism. It’s not about slavishly applying rules from a book, it’s about taking a symbol a little more seriously than fashion dictates. Reeder, doesn’t getting hit over the head by the flag every time you turn your head get a little tiresome? Doesn’t it start to seem a little meaningless after a while? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/23 "2001-12-05T05:41:38Z")
**Hansel** , I think I’m somewhere in the middle here, actually. I agree with you that seeing the flag on every vehicle and flag t-shirts and flag lunch boxes and flag action figures, or whatever they’re going to whip out next is pretty stupid. On the other hand, I’m not upset with these people for displaying a flag _incorrectly_ - just for being so blatantly brain-washed in doing it. It’s a matter of degrees. It’s like being upset with a guy who’s driving too fast because he’s driving a Gremlin. It’s not the form that’s the problem, it’s the function. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/24 "2001-12-05T05:52:52Z")
I do wish it hadn’t taken 4000 deaths for people to display the flag. But no, I don’t tire of it. Just for your information, I don’t fly one. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/25 "2001-12-05T10:42:30Z")
Another thing that pisses me off is people who have a little flag attached to their car antenna. These are always at least tattered around the edges from the wind, and frequently are virtually shredded. A flag damaged by battle is a powerful image (though it must be taken down as soon as is possible and disposed of properly). A flag damaged by being dragged around on a pickup truck is disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/26 "2001-12-05T15:11:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > Nope. You haven’t sold me yet. We’re dealing with a concept here and, like birthday gifts, it’s the thought that counts. > > For someone to walk up to a well meaning individual who only wants to make a small symbolic display and berate them for not obeying “Rule 7 Paragraph 3 Line 12 of the Codicile on Inclement Weather from the third printing of the Official Flag Flying Rule Book; updated” … I think that’s disrespectful. \*\* Please. This is not some obscure little rule of ettiquite. How hard is it to grasp the concept of: 1. Don’t fly the flag in the rain 2. Don’t fly a tattered flag, 3. Hi Opal! 4. If practical, don’t fly an unlit flag at night. This is not complicated, and it’s pretty intuitive if you give it half a second’s thought. The basic gist is: fly the flag in a dignified manner. It’s not that hard, really. I stand by my statement: a flag flown **with care** is more meaningful than a flag flown **without care**. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/27 "2001-12-05T16:17:16Z")
Not all of us patriots worship a piece of cloth. The flag is, after all, an inanimate object. Here’s a concept: - If y’all who are so hepped up on protecting the flag from abuse, ask the flag if it’s being abuse. If there’s no answer whatsoever, perhaps that’s because the flag’s not a human being nor even an animal. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/28 "2001-12-05T16:59:39Z")
I’m sure the thousands of people selling clip-on car flags mean well, as did the millions of people buying them. But consider: Flags were never meant to withstand 50-70mph gale and hurricane level winds. Yet that’s exactly what they have to do day in, day out, as their owners go through the daily commute. The result? The flags are getting a little, shall we say, ragged. _That’s_ flag abuse in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Hibbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ce73a5/32.png) [@Hibbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hibbins)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/29 "2001-12-05T17:16:29Z")
**Reeder** (With a firm grasp of the obvious.) > [@](#): > > We are living in times that we have never lived in before… Really? No, I’m sure it’s next Tuesday right now. And here, what at first appears to be a sensible sentence, but upon further inspection is actually quite senseless. > [@](#): > > People. Fly the flag ever how you see fit and be proud. Those who condemn you for it…well…they are sad people anyway. Proud if they: Fly it tattered, torn , and soiled? :rolleyes: Fly it aflame? :rolleyes: Wear it as underwear? :rolleyes: \*\* hansel\*\* > [@](#): > > The flag has been trivialized by simplistic overuse. > The symbolism of the flag is lost when it’s applied thoughtlessly. Note: the symbolism is not affected by repetition. Scarcity of the American flag and American flag images do not make it more meaningful, just as an abundance does not lessen its impact (think fourth of July). The symbolism is affected by thoughtless (careless) attitudes toward the display and use of the American flag and American flag images (i.e. as a sales tool or when neglected). > [@](#): > > Reeder, doesn’t getting hit over the head by the flag every time you turn your head get a little tiresome? Doesn’t it start to seem a little meaningless after a while? No and absolutely not, as long as it is done tastefully and with thought! \*\* Jack Batty\*\* > [@](#): > > I’m not sure why I’m even arguing about this. I have a hard time figuring out why to fly a flag in the first place. > Is it to prove I’m an American? I live in America. I think I’ll just let people jump to their own conclusions regarding my citizenship. > Is it to prove I love my country? I know I love my country, and I don’t feel like proving that to a damn soul. > Is it to relay my condolences for victims of the terror attacks? I do that through my words. What’s a flag going to relate that I can’t? You’re arguing the wrong argument. The issue is not why these people fly the flag. The issue is not minor mistakes in display etiquette. _The issue_ is the cases that are a major breach of etiquette. Tattered, wet, faded flags lying half on the ground and half wrapped around their pole. Making it obvious the “flag waver” doesn’t care and is nothing more than one of the bandwagon jumpers that you despise. **Monty** > [@](#): > > If y’all who are so hepped up on protecting the flag from abuse, ask the flag if it’s being abuse. If there’s no answer whatsoever, perhaps that’s because the flag’s not a human being nor even an animal. According to you there are no abused animals. I keep asking and they never answer. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/30 "2001-12-05T17:23:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Not all of us patriots worship a piece of cloth. The flag is, after all, an inanimate object. > > Here’s a concept: > > - If y’all who are so hepped up on protecting the flag from abuse, ask the flag if it’s being abuse. If there’s no answer whatsoever, perhaps that’s because the flag’s not a human being nor even an animal. \*\* A-fucking-men! Am I any less patriotic because I couldn’t care any less about whether the American flag is flown on the second Tuesday of the month in sleet at twilight? ---
**Author:** ![Fledermaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Fledermaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fledermaus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/31 "2001-12-05T18:14:36Z")
BAWOOP! BAWOOP! DANGER WILL ROBINSON! HYPERBOLE ALERT!!! > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by JuanitaTech_ > Am I any less patriotic because I couldn’t care any less about whether the American flag is flown on the second Tuesday of the month in sleet at twilight? Once again, to beat the last gasping breath out of the dying horse, the OP referred to common sense etiquette: don’t let the flag get rained on, drag in the mud, get frayed and tattered, etc. Nobody’s talking about bizarre rituals involving secret handshakes and double-upside-down-quadruple-twist knots. Treat the American flag with respect. Treat it with a little more dignity than that banner proclaiming your pride in the \ Football team that you had hanging up three months ago before 9/11. So, in answer to your question, you are a patriot. A simple-minded, self-absorbed patriot who believes that showing your patriotism to all of your neighbors is far more important than taking the time and effort to treat a symbol of America with the respect it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/32 "2001-12-05T20:46:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fledermaus \* > \*\*BAWOOP! BAWOOP! DANGER WILL ROBINSON! HYPERBOLE ALERT!!! > Once again, to beat the last gasping breath out of the dying horse, the OP referred to common sense etiquette: don’t let the flag get rained on, drag in the mud, get frayed and tattered, etc. Nobody’s talking about bizarre rituals involving secret handshakes and double-upside-down-quadruple-twist knots. \*\* What you think is common sense, other think is stupid. For example, I say let the damn flag get wet. How the fuck is that disrespectful? The **country itself** is being rained on, yet a symbol of the country can’t be? Is it made of sugar? Are the colors from a PAAS Easter Egg kit? Will it shoot out evil gremlins? WHY CAN’T IT GET WET? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/33 "2001-12-05T21:35:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > What you think is common sense, other think is stupid. For example, I say let the damn flag get wet. How the fuck is that disrespectful? The **country itself** is being rained on, yet a symbol of the country can’t be? > > Is it made of sugar? Are the colors from a PAAS Easter Egg kit? Will it shoot out evil gremlins? WHY CAN’T IT GET WET? \*\* Because flags, like puppy dogs, don’t look as nice when they are sopping wet. A dry flag will wave majestically in the wind. A wet flag will just sort of hang there. Not to mention that by exposing the flag to the elements, you’re reducing its useful life. The flag may not run like a PAAS Easter Egg kit, but it will fray, fade, and tatter a lot more quickly when left out in the rain. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/34 "2001-12-05T22:01:43Z")
Wow, I had no idea this would be so contentious. Thanks, **hansel** and everyone else who chimed in to explain what I was trying to say. Yes, I understand that it’s the thought that counts. But you know what? I am 100% certain that the thought isn’t there when people don’t even notice that their flag is not only sopping wet but wrapped around its pole so you can’t see the union any more. I’m not asking that anyone kneel and pray for forgiveness when they allow a corner to touch the ground taking it down. I’m even willing, as I said in the OP, to cut some slack on the nighttime thing, since I understand that it’s tough to comply with that rule if you have a job. But you put up a flag because it is a symbol. That symbol has certain traditions associated with it, and failing to comply with those traditions sends the message that you don’t care about what the symbol represents. If I have a creche on my lawn and I fail to do anything about it for weeks after the local dog knocks Mary on her ass and chews off baby Jesus’ head, I’m saying something about how seriously I take the religious aspects of the season. Incidentally, one of the rules that I didn’t complain about (but it still bothers me) is that you don’t use the flag for advertising. I’m sure _that_ one is being observed. :rolleyes: I don’t like the flags on cars that have to stand up to 70 MPH winds, either. But I was trying to stick to the things that any schoolchild ought to know. I mean, honestly, even if you never learned _anything_ about flag etiquette, doesn’t it seem like most people ought to be able to figure out that displaying the flag in such a way that only half of it is actually flying is kind of stupid? [sub]p.s. For those referring to me in the third person, please note that I am female.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Fledermaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Fledermaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fledermaus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/35 "2001-12-05T22:02:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Revtim:_ > WHY CAN’T IT GET WET? Since other posters have already responded to this item, I’ll just repeat some of their words: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ENugent:_ > Hello, people! You can’t honor your country by treating its symbol with disrespect! > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Hansel:_ > Or maybe the OP is pointing out that merely hanging the flag on your house is jumping on the bandwagon, and that if you’re serious about flying the flag, you should get off your fat ass and do it right. The flag isn’t a button that reads “Me too!” And probably the best-worded statement on this subject: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Hansel:_ > But the point with the flag is that there’s a well-developed etiquette surrounding it. Bothering yourself to learn that etiquette and carry it out makes flying a flag a hell of a lot more significant than simply draping it over your mailbox, which is about the shallowist form of symbolism available. Actually, Revtim, I used to be on your side of this issue. “It’s just a flag, right, so get over it! So it drags on the ground! So it gets wet! So what!” I have since realized that to many people, the American flag is a _symbol_–a symbol that many people strongly believe should be treated with dignity and respect. While I don’t feel as strongly about the flag as these people do, I would never put up a flag and not follow the traditions and etiquette that follow. I try not to do things that, while they are my right, will only infuriate and engage others. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/36 "2001-12-05T23:24:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Not all of us patriots worship a piece of cloth. The flag is, after all, an inanimate object. > \*\* It’s not about worship, and it’s not about protecting a piece of cloth. It’s about the hypocrisy of proudly displaying a symbol, and then withering that same symbol through inattention and apathy. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/37 "2001-12-06T01:36:42Z")
I agree with the display-it-right crowd. You’ve already expressed my opinions, so I don’t need to add anything to that. What hasn’t been mentioned yet is the people hanging their flags vertically with the union (blue field full of stars) on the right. It’s supposed to be on the left. I guess I can’t resist reiterating: if you’re going to honor your country by displaying a flag, you’re defeating your purpose by doing it wrong. That shows disrespect, the exact opposite of what you were going for. And the “me too!” aspect…reminds me of how everyone was suddenly a Cleveland Indians fan when they got into the world series for the first time in forty years. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/38 "2001-12-06T01:43:55Z")
_sigh_ I agree that flags officially flown deserve the respect that is laid down in the “rules”. But pleases, let those people who fly them from antennas, windows, mailboxes et al do what they see as their patriotic duty. Not everyone has a flag pole in their front yard ya know. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/39 "2001-12-06T03:54:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fledermaus \* > \*\*BAWOOP! BAWOOP! DANGER WILL ROBINSON! HYPERBOLE ALERT!!! > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by JuanitaTech_ > > Am I any less patriotic because I couldn’t care any less about whether the American flag is flown on the second Tuesday of the month in sleet at twilight? > > \ > So, in answer to your question, you are a patriot. A simple-minded, self-absorbed patriot who believes that showing your patriotism to all of your neighbors is far more important than taking the time and effort to treat a symbol of America with the respect it deserves. \*\* Erm… I’m so glad you summed me up so well. Oh wait, you didn’t. You’ll NEVER catch an American flag in my yard or on my car. So, no, I don’t believe that showing my patriotism is more important than blah blah blah. I don’t feel as though I need to display my patriotism at all. I donate time, money and other items to non-profit organizations that assist needy cititzens of this country as well as abroad. I did this prior to the tragic events of 9/11 and I still do. I don’t get all weepy and prideful when I see the flag being displayed according to the ‘rules’ nor do I get ticked when I see it being ‘abused’. I think it’s silly to do so. But that’s just my opinion. Just so that we’re on the same page, not caring about whether or not the flag is properly illuminated does not make me simple-minded. Not caring whether or not someone’s flag is wet does not make me self-aborbed. My priorities are just different from yours. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/40 "2001-12-06T04:01:21Z")
It does make me feel good to see the flags flying or posted somewhere for public view. I have stopped at businesses and thanked them for their displays, and then explained how they can make a simple change to show it properly, and reflect better on their business. I have been met with thanks and changes were made immediately in some cases. If someone is doing it for the right reasons, but in the wrong manner, there should not be any jack-booted gestapo banging down their door, but they should be made aware of how to do it better. I’m in Miami, where two years ago an American flag was a source of derision. Now, many of those same people fly the flag proudly, but backwards. They should be helped to do it better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925.md?page=3)