# Flag Abuse **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925 "2001-12-04T23:54:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/81 "2001-12-07T04:58:38Z")
**Jack Batty** , I want to know if you think it socially acceptable behavior to sit down at a nice restaurant and eschew the use of utensils in eating your meal. Say, drinking the soup directly from the bowl and shoveling penne pasta into your mouth with your bare hands. Please note I am **not** asking if you have the “right” to eat in such a fashion, I’m instead asking if you think that kind of behavior is socially acceptable. Because that’s what we’re really talking about here. No one thinks that improper flag displays should have some kind of criminal repercussions. Those of us on the “fly it right” side are just saying, in effect, that it is in staggeringly bad taste to fail to follow the basic rules of flag etiquette. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/82 "2001-12-07T05:56:59Z")
**Dewey** , I’d say you’re doing the same thing that **Servo** was up to, comparing an active display of questionalble behavior, to a passive set of arbtrary rules. Also, about a flag in the rain … While, I might think that an owner might be a little lazy in leaving his flag out in the rain, I wouldn’t rail against his “obvious disrespect for the glorious symbol that our forefathers bled the gournd red … yada yada yada”. But the other rules: no flying at night, raise briskly, lower ceremoniously, don’t let it touch the ground, etc. are arbitrary to be rediculous. It isn’t disrespectful for a picture of my mother to touch the ground, why is it disrespectful for my flag to touch the ground. The whole thing is a lot different than making a slobby spectacle of yourself in public, which, in fact, I do think you have the right to do if that’s what winds your wristwatch. ---
**Author:** ![rmbnxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@rmbnxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmbnxs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/83 "2001-12-07T06:38:53Z")
ENugent: Get a life. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/84 "2001-12-07T06:46:58Z")
The perfect arguement! Damnit, why didn’t I think of that. You sir, are the king! ---
**Author:** ![rmbnxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@rmbnxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmbnxs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/85 "2001-12-07T06:55:49Z")
ENugent: Get a life. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/86 "2001-12-07T07:03:33Z")
Stop it! You’re killing me. Oh! My side. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/87 "2001-12-07T07:59:16Z")
> [@](#): > > So why the fuck are so many people bitching at me about the four rusted out junkers I got behind the trailer? Their my goddamn cars after all. > > Paint the trailer? Why the fuck should I, I like the peeling paint. > > Mow the grass? Piss off, it’s MY grass and I like it tall. > …_[and so on]_ Number one reason I think rules about those are stupid. Unfortunately, there are repercussions to not following community covenants, so I guess I have to. To my knowledge, there is no punishment for flying an unlit night flag. Therefore, I won’t follow it. Because it’s stupid. Stupid and arbitrary. Stupid, arbitrary, and imposed upon me by people who’s business it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/88 "2001-12-07T08:53:46Z")
As has been mentioned, this whole issue is about respect. Both for the symbol and for people who believe in the symbol. There is a set of conventions which apply to the flag, and by following these conventions you show respect to the symbol itself (and hence to the nation) and also to people who believe that symbol means something. If you don’t believe in the symbolism, fine. But other people do, and to openly flaunt the conventions says that you do not respect the believers. The nativity scene has been mentioned, and it is also a symbol, albeit a religious one. I think that it is just as disrespectful to people who sincerely believe to set up a nativity scene in your yard at Thanksgiving and then leave it out until May when the temperature comes back up and you can drag it back into the garage in your shirtsleeves. Similarly, you wouldn’t go to the president and say “Hey, George, dig the tie but did you know you look _exactly_ like Alfred E. Newman?” Or it may be that you would, but it would still be disrespectful. As other people have mentioned, it is not that big of a deal to bring the flag in when it is raining, and the OP said clearly that she is willing to cut people slack. What gets me is that people are so wildly anti flag code. Especially people who think that flag burning/urinating on flags/smearing flags with feces is a legitimate action covered by free speech protections. If the flag doesn’t mean anything, then burning it doesn’t mean anything either, and so who cares? However, if the flag does symbolize the country, then it should be treated with a modicum of respect. Ok, I think that’s all I have to say. Tenebras ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/89 "2001-12-07T09:02:17Z")
Nicely bleated. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/90 "2001-12-07T09:03:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > \*\* > That’s right, it’s sad to say that the flag shouldn’t be pasted up like wallpaper just because everyone else is doing it. \*\* And you know that is their reason… how, exactly? Take me, for example. I’ve never been patriotic in my life. I never felt the need or desire to fly the flag. I appreciated the life I have in this country, but didn’t feel any particular call to ‘band together as a nation’ or whatever. Until September 11. At that point, the way I felt changed. For the first time in my life, I felt like standing up and putting my arm around the next guy and saying ‘hey, we’re in this together, dammit’. I felt the desire to show support for my country–that is, to say, I am American, and what you do to other Americans affects me too. I got the little flag out of my son’s room, that he’d gotten the previous Fourth of July, and I taped it to the inside of my kitchen window. I tied a red, white and blue ribbon to my door knocker. I stuck a little plastic flag to the inside of the window of my car. And you know what? None of those things was because ‘everyone else was doing it’… it was just that for the first time in my life, I FELT LIKE DOING IT. And if someone is gonna come along and tell me that I did it wrong because the ribbon on my door has gold edging, or that packing tape is a disrespectful way to put up a flag, or that I’m just jumping on the bandwagon or whatever… well they can just bite me. I didn’t put up a huge flag outside, but that is mainly because we didn’t have one. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/91 "2001-12-07T09:27:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hibbins \ ***jack batty** > Wow, I am realy losing respect for you. I know, you don’t care. It’s amazing the small ways in which we’re all different… Regardless of my views on flags in the rain (which you’ll note, I haven’t given in this thread) I have to say that I’ve _gained_ respect for Jack Batty in this thread. Not that I didn’t respect him before, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/92 "2002-03-11T16:22:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > Because flags, like puppy dogs, don’t look as nice when they are sopping wet. A dry flag will wave majestically in the wind. A wet flag will just sort of hang there. So you’re saying that one shouldn’t have the flag on the pole on a dry day when there’s not wind? ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/93 "2002-03-11T20:37:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > \*\* > That’s not what I’m arguing at all. Ettiquette shouldn’t be done away with, especially as it relates to show respect to living breathing people. \*\* Then it would seem one might want to show some respect to the veterans who proudly defended what that flag symbolizes, rather than leave a shredded, faded, rain-soaked semblence of a flag on display until it completely biodegrades. I know that my grandfather, a proud WW2 veteran, always complained when he saw a flag being mistreated. If he were around today, he would be pleased at all of the new found patriotism, but he wouldn’t like the way people are disregarding the rules about the handling of the flag one bit. I’m sure there are many vets out there that feel the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/94 "2002-03-12T01:12:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*So you’re saying that one shouldn’t have the flag on the pole on a dry day when there’s not wind? \*\* Wow, you revived a 3-month old thread just to make that comment? The mind boggles… I was trying to concisely explain the rationale behind the “no flying the flag in the rain” rule of ettiquette. The even shorter explanation is that “a wet flag looks bad.” A wet flag looks worse than a dry flag on a windless day. (The funny thing is, I was all ready to say “we’ve done this topic before” when I first saw the thread, then realized that the thread wasn’t a new one at all. Massive deja vu ensued.) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/95 "2002-03-12T02:10:36Z")
What is this prevailing “_I’ll do the fuck whatever I want with the flag_” attitude? If you go to a job interview, common expectation is you dress for the position as though you have respect and courtesy for yourself and the potential employer, not “_I’ll do whatever the fuck I want …_” attitude. If you’re on a first date, common expectation is you dress for the as though you have respect and courtesy for yourself and your date, not “_I’ll do whatever the fuck I want …_” attitude. Isn’t the flag the same thing, of sorts? Flag ettiquitte is about respect for others as well as yourself, in a country where freedom to do as one pleases is often forgotten, misaligned, even abused. If you’re going to display/fly the flag as something to be proud, why not do it with respect? Just as if you want to protest your country and/or your government, the least you can do is make an active effort about it, and not be a wimp. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/96 "2002-03-12T02:15:51Z")
I read every post in this thread. I am a little surprised at the fact that no one has spoken for those that spoke for us over and over again through out our nations history. I think there are at least two places every patriotic American should visit. Arlington Nation Cemetary and Vicksburg Nation Cemetary. When displaying the flag it should be done with dignity and respect, not for the cloth and dye from which it is made, not for the sake of some arbitrary rules but in respect for those that shed thier blood behind Ol’ Glory. One of the first well documented battles of the pacific in WWII was Iwo Jima. I am greatful every day that I was not slaughter on that beach at seventeened. That flag was the symbol of the invisible for those patriotic souls. They gave thier young lives to give you the right to burn, stomp or deficate on that flag if you wish. But it is like my Grandma always said; “just because you can doesn’t mean you should.” ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/97 "2002-03-12T20:57:53Z")
Sweet Willy, the point is not that people want to disrespect the flag or those who died in wars. The point is that many don’t see following stupid and arbitrary rules as a form of respect. Conversely, we also don’t see things like ingoring those stupid and arbitrary rules as forms of DISrespect. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/98 "2002-03-12T22:23:54Z")
**Revtim** , I see no problem with your logic. Just as I said before, you have the right to display your flag in any way you you wish. I just noticed that no one in this entire thread gave credit to the young men who gave you the freedom to fly your flag in any way you wish. I see a stark irony in the fact that the very people who made the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom are the same people that gave you the right to treat the flag in a way they would surely find disrespectful. That is not to say that some peoples perceived disrespect of the flag is intentionally disrespectful. I just thought it might help some here to realize why some others find it disrespectful. Personally, when I see the flag, I reminds of all the young men that gave thier lives for my freedom. They were thinking of me…and you…and our country. They could not see us, they did not know us. They did have the Flag of the United States of America. It was what reminded them of what they were fighting for. When they planted the flag on top of Mt. Surabachi they were thinking of me and you and America as we know it. When I fly the flag today I can not help but think of them. If they can climd a mountain amidst grenades and mortars for the sake of planting the flag for me, the least I can do is treat the flag with a modest amount of respect while I am in the comfort of my own front yard. I don’t deny you the right to fly your flag as you see fit. Those boys died to ensure you the right to spit on thier graves if you feel like it. Maybe you wouldn’t see that as disrepectful either but many would disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925/99 "2002-03-12T22:44:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > Wow, you revived a 3-month old thread just to make that comment? The mind boggles… No, asshole. You might recall that there was this little thing known as the Hacked Hiatus for this board. I waited until I could get back and then went to the thread and made the comment. > [@](#): > > I was trying to concisely explain the rationale behind the “no flying the flag in the rain” rule of ettiquette. And you did a freaking poor job of it. What you called rationale, the rest of the planet calls a Wild Assed Guess. Try to get the terminology straight. > [@](#): > > The even shorter explanation is that “a wet flag looks bad.” That’s also a WAG to the rest of the world. > [@](#): > > A wet flag looks worse than a dry flag on a windless day. This “explanation” just doesn’t hold water (heh, heh, heh) when one realizes (as opposed to your penchant for guessing) that there are flags “properly” flown in inclement weather. Now, I don’t know for sure, but I am willing to lay real money on those flags not having some magic force field to protect them from liquid H[sub]2[/sub]O. > [@](#): > > (The funny thing is, I was all ready to say “we’ve done this topic before” when I first saw the thread, then realized that the thread wasn’t a new one at all. Massive deja vu ensued.) Well, we have done this topic before in other threads. All of the, IIRC, have my comment that this Armed Forces Veteran, at least, does not consider that particular piece of cloth to be a deity or even an idol. I put this comment in here because every time the subject is addressed, someone starts bitching about how much of an insult it is to the Veterans for other people to not worship it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-abuse/96925.md?page=4)