Me too. I thought I was being pretty restrained. 
I introduced that comparison quite a few posts ago, and no one has commented. I wonder the same thing, though.
And by the way, I never questioned anyone’s patriotism. I said that there is a code for participating in this particular activity, and (all together now) THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO DO SO ought to do it CORRECTLY.
Sheesh.
And the opposing argument is that CORRECTLY is an arbitrary classification. You can tell me that I should do it by the standardized (arbitrary) rules set forth somewhere, but it doesn’t mean I have to, and it doesn’t mean I think any less of my country for not bleating along.
I never utter the Pledge of Allegence either, does that make me treasonous? I rarely take my hat off when the national anthem plays. Should I report to the brig now, or should I just sit tight and wait for Big Brother to take me away?
I guess I fail to see how the Flag Code is any more “arbitrary” than any other law. It’s pretty straightforward. I f you want to display the flag at night, it needs to be lighted. In inclement weather, either take down the flag or display an all-weather flag. The rest of it wouldn’t really apply to people flying the flag at their home. Also, the main point of the OP was that people either don’t know or don’t care how to properly display the flag, so you’d hardly be “bleating along”
Why?
Why?
These are arbitrary things. What does an unlit flag hurt?
How does my property getting wet make a difference to any one other than myself.
The rules are straightforwarded. Why the rules exist is arbitrary.
Much to your chagrin, obviously.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ffmdavis *
**
Most laws make sense, and have logic behind them. You think laws that prohibit say, murder and stealing, are as arbitrary as whether or not a flag can fly in the dark? What the hell laws are you talking about?
And yes, I know there are stupid laws like “prohibition of putting squirrels in your pants for the purposes of gambling”, but generally there’s logic behind most enforced laws. And the ones that have no logic behind them are just as stupid as Flag code laws. But the vast majority of laws are not arbitrary.
Andros
My point was that if I started collecting junk cars in my backyard and let my paint and grass go the neighbors would be all over me to “clean up my act”. Most would argue rightly so.
jack batty
Wow, I am realy losing respect for you. I know, you don’t care. That is all fine and dandy. Except that someday it MAY matter. Unless you think yourself an island.
Personally I am proud to stand (face the flag) and remove my cap when the National Anthem plays. I find it contemptuous not too. That or the individual is too stupid to understand that they are not making a stand for “free expression” but pissing all over the symbols of that “freedom”. The symbols that represent that this “freedom” wasn’t given to us, but was earned.
Finally, those of you who know better but intentionally ignore protocol just to get a rise out of someone are incredibly immature, not to mention repugnant.
I’m somewhat surprised at all the assertions that flag etiquette is “meaningless”. I wonder if those who feel this way think that all forms of etiquette are meaningless, or just those they wish to ignore?
Is it a meaningless gesture to stand and place one’s hand over one’s heart during the playing of the national anthem at a ball game? It’s certainly just as arbitrary as the rule against flying a flag unlit at night. Is it meaningless to address a judge as “Your Honor”? (Try calling one “Hey Mac” in a courtroom sometime.)
There are two possible reasons for displaying the emblem of a country or organization; either to honor and support or to disparage. Both reasons require that the emblem be used publically and symbolically to represent the thing you wish to honor/support/dishonor/ridicule.
Question for the “rules are stupid” camp: what is the symbolic meaning of a tattered, rain drenched American flag hanging out of the bed of a pickup truck?
MHO: If one assumes that the displayer of the flag intends the flag’s current condition of disrepair and its careless position, then one must assume the message is something like “Piss on America”. If one assumes, however, that the state of the flag is through inattention and disregard, then the message is nothing more patriotic than “my country; like it or who cares anyway?”, and any prouder meaning has been stripped from the display.
I wonder if the same people that don’t mind that flags are rotting away in the rain and shredded on top of car antennas also don’t mind when flags are being burned.
‘It’s my right, freedom of expression, bla bla,…’ Well, it is also somebody’s right to burn the flag.
The value of a symbol increases with every thought that is put into the act (Christmas, folding your hands for praying, taking your hat of for the anthem, etc.)
Why have customs and symbols at all if etiquette is not important?
jack batty
Now the light bulb goes on.
Do I have this right? You think that those arguing for proper display are insinuating that if you don’t display it you are not patriotic? That you MUST jump on the bandwagon?
You want to do your “performance art” piece with your flag (run around with it tied on as a cape) fine. If you don’t have enough courtesy to display your “expression” where it won’t offend others then don’t be fucking surprised if you get a lot of one finger salutes.
I suggest flag knapping. If you witness a neighbor abusing his flag, just sneak over there and take it.
Maybe replace it with a flag with “Arabs” inside a big red circle with a line through it? It’s just expression right?
Dear Diary,
Hibbins is losing respect for me. Whatever shall I do?
:rolleyes:
And your little “flagnapping” plan has another title: theft – which is agains a very non-arbitrary law.
Also for Hinten, while I’m on a roll, yes, I think that flag burning is a perfectly acceptable form of protest or expression, I consider Christmas to be merely a commercial holiday which I thoroughly enjoy, I don’t fold my hands when I pray, because I don’t pray, and we have symbols to symbolize things. Ettiquette, schmettiquette, it doesn’t take away from the symbol.
So do I (about the flag burning) but I am not surprised that people who actually defend what the flag stands for will try to honor it better than having it rott in the rain.
The folding of the hands when praying was an example of taking an action that goes out of the way to show that you put thought into an action. Just like taking your hat of during the playing of the anthem which you conviniently forgot. I don’t pray myself but I have a problem with people merely going through the motions and then telling everyone that their behavior means as much as somebody who puts thought into their action.
I will get flamed for this but: In a way burning the flag to express your dissention takes more thought and convictions than buying a $2.50 stick-it-on-the-minivan-plastic-flag at Wal-Mart to express your support.
I’d bet you’d have a lot less people saying that rules about how you’re supposed to treat a crucifix are “silly” and “arbitrary.”
Jack Batty, I have trouble believing that you think all rules of etiquette and behavior are arbitrary and worth dismissing out of hand [although that seems to be what you’re arguing]. A rule can be written down in a book by Ms. Manners, codified by an act of Congress, or drilled into your head by Mom. What’s the difference?
The flag is a symbol of our country [arguably one of the most important]. As such most people would feel that it deserves a good deal of respect. And there are rules regarding how you show respect to our flag, just like there are rules about how you show respect for people. Why is one set any more arbitrary, and worthy of not following, than the other?
Try pissing on the nativity scene in front of your local church and telling that to the parishioners you’ll undoubtedly offend.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Servo *
**
That’s a good point. Whether someone is offended by their symbol being pissed on is completely non-logical and arbitrary. Unless someone reads in a book somewhere that “pissing on” = “disrespect”, then they wouldn’t be offended by someone lettin’ go on the baby Jesus. A flag in the dark = a nativity scene being pissed on. Thanks, this extremely valid analogy cleared it all up for me.
That’s not what I’m arguing at all. Ettiquette shouldn’t be done away with, especially as it relates to show respect to living breathing people. What I’m arguing is that one may show respect for a symbol in his or her own way, damn the rules. As for me, I could go on respecting my country and it’s symbols without once thinking about the rules of how to do it, until some schmuck berates me for not doing it the way he wants me to.
You compare pissing on a public nativity scene to leaving a my personal property in the rain, or in the dark? Not quite the same ballpark.
A more adequate analogy might be this: I’m walking past the nativity scene of my local church and I don’t stop to genuflect and cross myself, and some zealot comes running out to tell me I’m going to hell.
Ok, fine. “Pissing on” was too harsh of an example. But it doesn’t change my point. I realize that it’s hard to read past an exaggeration so I’ll tone it down so my argument isn’t lost.
There are rules in many religions about how you treat sacred symbols. Supposed the Vatican made a proclamation that a crucifix shouldn’t be displayed outside during Lent. If someone then displayed a crucifix outside during Lent, I wouldn’t be surprised [and I don’t think many other people would] if other Christians complained about it. And I don’t think you could dismiss how they felt by saying, “Lighten up, the rules are just arbitrary.”
How is that different from rules pertaining to the flag?
I don’t think I said that. My comment was directed towards what I quoted from Jack Batty’s post. I was trying to illustrate [through an admittedly exaggerated example], that lack of etiquette does take away from a symbol. I never made that analogy, and I certainly didn’t imply that someone pissing on a nativity scene is as bad as someone leaving a flag out in the dark.
Not at all. They are both equally arbitrary.
I just want to make sure everyone realizes that the Flag Code is NOT law.
Maybe I’m attaching too much importance to rules. I still believe that they’re important, but maybe I shouldn’t be arguing about whether or not you should follow the “rules” about flying the flag.
Leaving a flag out in the rain is disrespectful to the flag. It is not disrespectful because there’s a “rule” written down somewhere that says you shouldn’t do it. It’s disrespectful because leaving something out in the rain is an indication that you don’t care about it. If my neighbor habitually left their bike out in the rain, I would assume that they didn’t care too much about their bike. If they hung their laundry out on a clothesline and didn’t bring it in when it started to rain, I would think they didn’t care about their laundry.
Would I start a pit thread about that? No. It’s your stuff, I don’t give a good god damn what you do with it. But the flag is not just your personal piece of cloth that you hang in front of your house. It’s a symbol of our country, of my country, and it disturbs me to see it sitting there in the rain. I also think that’s it’s hypocritical to be flying a flag because you’re proud of your country [I’d presume] and then leave it out in the rain.
I still believe that every rule I know about flying the flag is a good one. [The very act of following specific rules about the flag, and treating it markedly different than I would treat just another piece of fabric, is how I personally show my respect.] I wouldn’t berate someone who put a decal of the flag on their car and didn’t have the canton towards the front. If someone hung a flag with the canton on the right, instead of the left I wouldn’t rush over and lecture them about paragraph x of the flag code. But, come on, leaving it out in the rain?
It just seems so obvious.
If by “not law” you mean that the flag police won’t come and arrest you, you’re right. But the Flag Code IS law in the sense that it is a law adopted by Congress and codified in the U.S. Code.
See 4 U.S.C. §§ 1-10: