# Flag Burning post- 9/11? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2002, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812 "2002-04-10T11:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/41 "2002-04-10T19:43:10Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > I made the valid analogy that burning the flag is an expression of hate against the US, in the same way that burning an Israeli flag or painting a swastika is an expression of hate against the Jews or Israel, burning a cross is an expression of hate against blacks. People don’t burn flags as constructive criticism. You’re living in a fantasy land if you think so, sister. It’s not a bad analogy, it’s just one you disapprove of._\* You did make an analogy. Whether it is valid or not is highly subjective, and to me comes off as harsh propaganda that furthers your narrow argument. I do not think that burning the flag always means hate of the United States. When Americans burn the flag, I often see it as a statement against those who rule us, and the often despicable things they do, their votes and power being purchased by the highest bidder, rather than representing their voters who put them in the position they are abusing. To equate that form of visible dissent with the KKK or other hate groups is not only fallacious, from my perspective it comes off as being ignorant and intolerant. Flags are burnt as symbols of dissent at times. Is it constructive criticism? Perhaps not. But just as I will fight to make sure the voices of those I loathe can be heard, I will also support those who may dissent in ways I don’t necessarily agree with. I think that as long as no one’s free will is being abridged, and no one is being physically harmed that all forms of dissent should be protected. ---
**Author:** ![My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f14d63/32.png) [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/42 "2002-04-10T19:44:10Z")
I will preface this by saying that I love my country very much. That, and I am not a nice person at times. I stand up for what I believe in. If I were to see someone burning the US flag and shouting things like “Fuck America!” I would be promted to beat the bejezzus out of that person. Curb-stomping these people is a hypocracy? They are using the very freedoms gained under that flag to protest it. As far as I am concerned, they can leave the country if they don’t like it. They have to freedom to do that. If they choose to exercise their freedom to piss me off then I will ecercise my freedom to pay a fine for beating them severely. –==the sax man==– ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/43 "2002-04-10T19:55:50Z")
> [@](#): > > See if this makes sense-the very reason one should not burn the flag-is because one CAN burn the flag. I understand your point; it’s one I disagree with. > [@](#): > > And like catsix said, if it WAS made illegal-that would be the BEST time to burn it, because it would show what a mockery the law would be-it would destroy what the flag stands for Sigh. IF it were illegal, THEN I would agree with you. **But it IS legal!!** , so your point is meaningless. > [@](#): > > For example-what if someone decided to burn the flag as a demonstration against the Defense of Marriage Act? Or as a demonstration against Anti-Sodomy Laws? Just because I support a cause does not mean I support tactics used by activists supporting the same cause. ACT UP used to disrupt church services and throw condoms at the congregation–was I supposed to support that, too? I was appalled. > [@](#): > > If I explain to you why that flag is on fire (the symbol is being destroyed, much like the government is destroying the actual freedom), you’d still call it imbecilic because you believe that burning a flag is an invalid form of expression? Oh, right, because it carries no penalty. IF you explained your intent, then yes, I might even agree with you. BUT, you keep making cases of supposition–I’m talking about actual events. > [@](#): > > By the way, nice characterization of people who have multiple piercings as stupid. You care to extend that to multiple tattoos or brightly colored hair? No, I wrote “people with more piercings than brains.” If you have more brains than piercings, then it doesn’t apply to you, does it? In other threads, I’ve talked about people with more money than brains–did i mean to say that all well-off people are stupid? > [@](#): > > Around here, or so I’m told, we try to debate other people’s points - and not call our opponents ‘morons’. Or do you think that rule doesn’t apply because none of the pierced, hippy, flag burning types are on this message board? Yep. The rule is one can’t call one’s opponents here morons–doesn’t apply to the rest of the world. I think Yasser Arafat is a moron–shall I get scolded for that? In any event, > [@](#): > > . A Constitutional amendment banning flag-burning, if passed by the Congress and ratified by the states, would be entirely on a par with the First Amendment, and would therefore constitute an exception to freedom of speech and expression wherein one may not burn a flag Shoot, **Polycarp** ’s right–I should have written “Act of Congress.” If such an asinine Constitutional amendment WERE passed, I’d be burning flags, too. Only if it passed, mind. > [@](#): > > I think that as long as no one’s free will is being abridged, and no one is being physically harmed that all forms of dissent should be protected. You’re missing the point, **Hastur**. Everybody here, including me, agrees that flagburning is a protected form of speech. That is NOT the point of contention. Everybody else is arguing that flagburning is a noble exercise and that trashing American symbols is the highest form of patriotism. I think it’s a pointless activity engaged in by dimwitted people who hate America. Just because an act is protected does NOT mean it’s praiseworthy. I disapprove of flagburning and the people who do it, period. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/44 "2002-04-10T19:56:07Z")
You know, I’d die for my country - but not for my government. And if **SMUsax** wants to come ‘curb-stomp’ me because I’d be willing to express my utter disgust at what those in government have done to the freedoms that define America, he’s going to run into a few problems. I’m not a pacifist or a weak person who cannot defend myself from a physical attack. **SMUsax** has made a very public statement that he will exert physical violence, possibly to the point of death (people do die from severe beatings) upon anyone he sees using a method of symbolic speech he doesn’t like very much. Of course, he’s also of the same (mis)informed opinion that anyone who burns a flag must be protesting the existence of that flag (and the freedoms it stands for) rather than the destruction of the freedoms the flag stands for. The problem here is that he’s advocated and even threatened violence of his way of handling it. I wonder how he feels about those who will exercise their freedoms to defend their lives from his ‘severe beatings’ with force? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/45 "2002-04-10T19:56:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SMUsax \* > \*\* > If they choose to exercise their freedom to piss me off then I will ecercise my freedom to pay a fine for beating them severely. > > –==the sax man==-- \*\* _Charming._ So, if someone uses their rights in a way that displeases you, you feel justified in harming them. Silencing dissent sets up precedents that leads to diminishing rights for all, including your “right” to abuse those you disagree with. When one of our elected members of Congress can be told that they are being traitorous for asking where the money is going, we already have an atmosphere of curtailed freedoms. In every war, Americans temporarily lose some freedoms in the midst of the conflict. Each time it is harder to get them back. Are you going to help the erosion of these freedoms through your seeming intolerance? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/46 "2002-04-10T20:00:09Z")
> [@](#): > > They are using the very freedoms gained under that flag to protest it. That’s the whole point. They’re free to burn the flag to make whatever point it is they think they’re making. You _don’t_ have the right to beat the crap out of them. Suppose legislators pass a law against flag burning. Then let’s say they pass a law that says people can’t express a political view “such as Planned Parenthood are prohibited from advertising in support of of against a candidate in the period before an election.” (Oh, wait – they _have!_) And then let’s say they pass a law prohibiting political dissent. Next thing you know they’ll try to ban firearms, engage in illegal searches, seize property without compensation, and on down the list. You may not like people burning the flag, and I may not like them doing it, but the flag stands for the right to burn it. If they want to stand out there and cry, “Down with free speech!”, let them. Maybe it will dawn on them how silly that is. (Like Yuppies who put bike racks on their Volvos to make them pollute less or get better mileage or whatever.) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/47 "2002-04-10T20:02:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SMUsax \* > \*\*I They are using the very freedoms gained under that flag to protest it. As far as I am concerned, they can leave the country if they don’t like it. They have to freedom to do that. > –==the sax man==-- \*\* “America-love it or leave it!” hmmm Not “America-use your first ammendment rights to protest in order to improve it” Gobear-You can generalize about the flag-burners you have seen. However, that generalization does not apply to all flag-burners everywhere. Many posters have come out in support of flag burning, all of them with more concrete arguments than ‘Screw America!’. ``` The flag stands for the freedom to burn the flag. American citizens can criticize the government without fear of secret police, gulags, or executions. I do not equate burning the flag with urinating on dead soldiers, quite the opposite. Our soldiers fought to defend the freedoms we have-including the freedom to burn the flag. ``` ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/48 "2002-04-10T20:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by **gobear** :_ > I wonder if Mr. Hat lit the match. \<_choke… splutter…_\> OK, _that_ image just made the whole thread worthwhile… > [@](#): > > _originally posted by **SMUsax** :_ > Curb-stomping these people is a hypocracy? They are using the very freedoms gained under that flag to protest it. As far as I am concerned, they can leave the country if they don’t like it. They have to freedom to do that. > > If they choose to exercise their freedom to piss me off then I will ecercise my freedom to pay a fine for beating them severely. It’s worth noting that the illusory wisdom of snappy rhetorical hyperbole tends to lend credence to the types of belief exemplified by **SMUsax** ’s screed. Yes, we are an irony-rich nation, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Hinten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecd19e/32.png) [@Hinten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hinten)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/49 "2002-04-10T20:55:00Z")
- Probably more than a million flags purchased from Wal-Mart, Kmart, Home Depot, etc. - Put on cars, houses, kids, and pets for about 2 months. - Major discussion whether plastering the American flag all over your car is an act of patriotism or utter stupidity. - People pointing out that the flag as a symbol should be treated with respect and that having it rained on and ripped at 70mph on the freeway might not portray that to its fullest extend. - Other people saying that it makes them feel oh so good to have the flag up. - Months later, more than a million American flags need to be disposed. - Take them of your cars and homes, throw them in the trash with yesterdays meatloaf and dog poop to be picked up later and incinerated with all the other trash. - Go to SDMB and complain about people who don’t share your opinion and that they should be shot for mistreating this symbol of freedom. - Watching this farce: priceless! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/50 "2002-04-10T21:19:26Z")
gobear: > [@](#): > > And YOU missed where I posted that I LIVE here, that I listened to the demos, that I paid attention to their justifications, and yes, it is pretty darn uniform. Sorry, that’s how it is. So, are you saying that -You’ve attended every flag burning -You’ve interviewed everyone involved in every one of those flag burnings -You now know that not only is that the reason every flag burner **has** had, but that it is the reason every flag burner **will** have? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/51 "2002-04-10T21:27:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > Just because I support a cause does not mean I support tactics used by activists supporting the same cause. ACT UP used to disrupt church services and throw condoms at the congregation–was I supposed to support that, too? I was appalled. > \*\* And again-the reason THAT is not the same is because they were actively assaulting and harassing others! If I stand on MY property and burn MY flag-you may not agree, but for you to beat ME up, would be the same thing that those ACT UP folks are doing. To compare someone who burns a flag to someone who throws condoms at people during a church service is comparing apples to oranges. Don’t you get it? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/52 "2002-04-10T21:43:29Z")
**gobear:** > [@](#): > > The rhetoric of the hippie anarchists who plague DC every year is as I described:“Fuck AmeriKKa, man, this country sucks!” Cite, please. Or rather: that may be the rhetoric of the “hippie anarchists” in the D.C. protests, but those “hippie anarchists” in no way comprise a totality–or even a plurality, from what I know–of the protesters. Just because reasoned dissent doesn’t make the nightly news… ---
**Author:** ![My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f14d63/32.png) [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/53 "2002-04-10T22:45:54Z")
My first post was a little hasty. I would not actually “curb-stomp” or otherwise beat to death a person for burning a flag. I would be very tempted to beat on them a bit though. I was kinda caught up in the moment there. \ It sounds nice to say that burning a flag is a freedom of speech, but that does not make it so. The American flag is a **symbol.** By that I mean that it stands for something much much larger than the icon. A person cannot own a symbol. They can own the token of that symbol, but they do not own the symbolic meaning attached to that token. By burning the flag you are protesting the symbolic meaning of that token, and that greatly offends me. It may move me to violence. I don’t know as I have not been put in that situation yet. Making a resolution to outlaw flag burning is not a violation of free speech because it is not outlawing an appropriate type of expression. It outlaws an action in the United States that is distainful of the entire United States. If you have that much distain for the place you live in, leave! I hope that you find a country that suits you better though I doubt that you will. If you wish to make a statement to your congressman about how you do not think that he has represented your interests as a constituent then write him a letter and don’t vote for him. That’s how we do it here. We **vote** for out representatives. They want to keep their jobs so they try to keep us happy. That is the way to get ahold of your representative’s ear. Threaten his job with your vote. Don’t burn the symobl of American values and triumphs. –==the sax man==– ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/54 "2002-04-10T23:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > And again-the reason THAT is not the same is because they were actively assaulting and harassing others! If I stand on MY property and burn MY flag-you may not agree, but for you to beat ME up, would be the same thing that those ACT UP folks are doing. You’re not paying attention–I do NOT plan on beating anybody up. I strongly disapprove of flagburning. If you burn a flag in protest, I will think very badly of you. See, you’re not as tolerant as you think–I have said --REPEATEDLY–that flagburning is legally protected, but despicable. You do not accept MY right to dissent from the SDMB groupthink that flagburning is a noble act. Who is REALLY the intolerant one here? **The Ryan** and **Gadarene** –why bother? I could say that the sky is blue, and you’d say because it’s raining where you are, the sky could not possibly be blue in DC. Because you know one or two nice protesters, any reports to the contrary must be lies. Tell you what, you come to DC on 4/20 and deal with these anarchist yahoos! ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/55 "2002-04-10T23:44:18Z")
Wanna explain again how having piercings makes a person an imbicilic moron with no actual ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/56 "2002-04-10T23:57:35Z")
> [@](#): > > The Ryan and Gadarene–why bother? I could say that the sky is blue, and you’d say because it’s raining where you are, the sky could not possibly be blue in DC. Because you know one or two nice protesters, any reports to the contrary must be lies. > > Tell you what, you come to DC on 4/20 and deal with these anarchist yahoos! Due respect, but you didn’t answer the question. And, in fact, you put words in my mouth, something I’d appreciate if you didn’t do again. I’ll repeat: cite for the assertion that a) hippie anarchists have nothing more relevant or valuable to say than “Fuck AmeriKKa,” and b) that those “hippie anarchists” constitute the majority of those protesting. Thanks in advance. By the way, I live in D.C. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/57 "2002-04-11T02:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Wanna explain again how having piercings makes a person an imbicilic moron with no actual ideas? That’s not what I said. Bzzt–try again. > [@](#): > > By the way, I live in D.C. cool, hope to meet you at a Dopefest. Cite? No, nothing that will withstand scrutiny. I only plead the inconvenice they cause, not getting to work in 2000, the rhetoric I heard through the bullhorns. But a printed cite I can link to? Nope, sorry. If that’s required, then I must cede the argument. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/58 "2002-04-11T02:02:54Z")
In any event, I maintain the right to despise people who burn flags. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/59 "2002-04-11T02:09:09Z")
> [@](#): > > And, in fact, you put words in my mouth, something I’d appreciate if you didn’t do again how so? You wrote [quote] Or rather: that may be the rhetoric of the “hippie anarchists” in the D.C. protests, but those “hippie anarchists” in no way comprise a totality–or even a plurality, from what I know–of the protesters. Just because reasoned dissent doesn’t make the nightly news… [quote] In other words, you know some reasonable protesters, so thatcompletely invalidates my experience. In any event, typical liberal rhetoric: one is free to burn flags, but not to look down on flagburners. I despise flagburners. Thye are not noble, they are not honorable, and I am not impressed. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812/60 "2002-04-11T02:41:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*In any event, typical liberal rhetoric: one is free to burn flags, but not to look down on flagburners. \*\* No, no, no. You can look down on them all you want - noboby has said otherwise - you just can’t beat the crap out of 'em. That was your original position in this thread, although, granted, you’ve backed off from that position. That’s good. So go and despise all you want if that’s what makes you happy, just be careful of how you act on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-burning-post-9-11/102812.md?page=4)