# Flag/pledge/anthem whiners **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475 "2016-08-30T12:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/181 "2016-09-01T00:18:40Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Then kiss the Star Spangled Banner goodbye too: > > - . . . And this be our motto – “In God is our trust,” . . . You’d have a stronger point if this verse were ever sung at baseball games. It isn’t, so, while you’re not wrong, you don’t really have a winner here. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/182 "2016-09-01T00:44:12Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > the uber-PC French have an anthem that talks about racial purity. Where is the SJW/far-left outrage about that? Probably in France. My take? If you’re upset about this guy not standing for the anthem you’re probably a racist asshole. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/183 "2016-09-01T00:59:27Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > [cousin Vinny] > > You were serious about that? > > [/cousin Vinny] > > To quote another character from the same film. “It’s a bullshit question”. (post shortened) _Does that mean that you can’t answer it?_ -Jim Trotter (My Cousin Vinny) _Uh, Mr. Gambini? All I ask from you is a very simple answer to a very simple question. There are only two ways to answer it._ -Judge Haller (from the same movie) ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/184 "2016-09-01T01:16:30Z")
IN the NFL, you can beat your wife unconcious, rape, or fight dogs, but you’d better fucking stand when the white folks sing. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/185 "2016-09-01T05:10:38Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > how come the rest of the NFL, many of whom are also black, aka “people of color,” don’t pull the unpatriotic and dishonourable shit this guy pulled? From what I understand, some have considered it. Eagles LB Mike Tavarres says [he will join Kaepernick](http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-eagles/eagles-lb-myke-tavarres-will-join-colin-kaepernick-wont-stand-national-anthem). ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/186 "2016-09-01T06:29:47Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > IN the NFL, you can beat your wife unconcious, rape, or fight dogs, but you’d better fucking stand when the white folks sing. No you can’t. All those things lead to quick unpaid suspensions. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/187 "2016-09-01T06:32:14Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > IN the NFL, you can beat your wife unconcious, rape, or fight dogs, but you’d better fucking stand when the white folks sing. And also numbingly racist to insinuate that people of color aren’t as patriotic as white people. Leave your basement once in a while and notice how real people live. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/188 "2016-09-01T10:37:29Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And also numbingly racist to insinuate that people of color aren’t as patriotic as white people. Leave your basement once in a while and notice how real people live. Your confusing jingoism for patriotism. Taking a stand to make America better: patriotism; standing for a song because it’s what you’re supposed to do: jingoism. Have you ever noticed that every one of these controversies about whether an athlete is sufficiently patriotic involve,people of color? We insist that they adhere to a script and any sense that they’re getting uppity must be immediately put down. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/189 "2016-09-01T12:30:31Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > _Does that mean that you can’t answer it?_ > -Jim Trotter (My Cousin Vinny) I believe the next line is “It’s a bullshit question”. Which it was. > [@](#): > > _Uh, Mr. Gambini? All I ask from you is a very simple answer to a very simple question. There are only two ways to answer it._ > -Judge Haller (from the same movie) Except that, as stated previously, it’s a bullshit question, so there is actually no reasonable answer. In any event, I will assume by your total non-response that you withdraw the claim that you are boing ‘shouted down’ here. Glad we could straighten that out, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/190 "2016-09-01T12:50:56Z")
Here’s a simple piece of advice, folks. Instead of whining about being shouted down on a message board, which can’t really happen, consider this alternate thought; “Wow, a lot of people on this board disagree with me.” The first is a delusional persecution complex. The alternative I’ve presented is just accepting reality. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/191 "2016-09-01T14:17:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You underestimate the importance of symbolism. Yeah, it’s just a pice of cloth, you say. But people salute it with pride. People fight for it to remain flying. Coffins get draped with it. Yeah, you don’t understand the power and importance of symbolism. Symbols are only important to the symbol-minded. (with apologies to George, may his soul rise and get stuck on the roof) ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/192 "2016-09-01T15:54:00Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > From what I understand, some have considered it. Eagles LB Mike Tavarres says [he will join Kaepernick](http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-eagles/eagles-lb-myke-tavarres-will-join-colin-kaepernick-wont-stand-national-anthem). Wow, one other person. How bout the other 1000 or so? [QUOTE=madmonk28] If you’re upset about this guy not standing for the anthem you’re probably a racist asshole. [/QUOTE] Every man a racist. If he were white, I’d still be calling him an unpatriotic and disrespectful POS, similar to Michael Moore lauding Castro/Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/193 "2016-09-01T16:11:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The song is fine, and I like it as our national anthem. \*‘No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:’ \* The consensus was that Francis Scott Key, an unrepentant racist ( as were most in his time ) was here sneering at the American slaves that had joined the British after being given promises of freedom if they enlisted. It’s really kind of a shit song IMHO. _America the Beautiful_ works better. ---
**Author:** ![TheStake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@TheStake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheStake)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/194 "2016-09-01T16:11:14Z")
I think people should just show some respect, it’s not a big deal, it’s just the right thing to do. IMO of course. It doesen’t burn my ass either way, but my folks and I show respect. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/195 "2016-09-01T16:15:14Z")
> [@TheStake](#): > > I think people should just show some respect, it’s not a big deal, it’s just the right thing to do. IMO of course. It doesen’t burn my ass either way, but my folks and I show respect. I show my respect for the country by working for the good of the people in it. That’s my patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/196 "2016-09-01T16:21:01Z")
> [@TheStake](#): > > I think people should just show some respect, it’s not a big deal, it’s just the right thing to do. IMO of course. It doesen’t burn my ass either way, but my folks and I show respect. Respect for what? the song? The flag? The cops? The people shot by cops? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/197 "2016-09-01T16:31:46Z")
> [@TheStake](#): > > As a vet, I personally believe that the symbolism is important. And you know what? Kaepernick would probably agree with you. What is his refusal, but a symbolic act? It would be the easiest thing in the world to just go along to get along, but he’s chosen not to do that, to highlight an issue that he considers to be of national importance. Some random dude in the audience not standing wouldn’t get noticed, but the highly paid guy on the field? That’s powerful symbolism, and probably kind of his whole point. Sure, you might still think he’s an asshole, but at least he’s being an asshole for a cogent reason, unlike so many of the other assholes discussing this. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/198 "2016-09-01T17:21:40Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > Thanks for your service, shipmate. > > That said, I just wanted to say, as a fellow vet, I do not co-sign @ **TheStake** ’s post. I do not equate not standing for the anthem with “dishonoring the fallen,” I do not think it’s “sick,” and I do not think it makes you an “asshole.” > > It would be fair to say that we don’t place the same value on symbolism. Or, at least, not that particular symbolism. As another vet, I agree with you. Standing for the anthem is traditional. Not doing so is not disrespectful; it merely does not conform to expectation dictated by that tradition. I remember being outraged when I was in 'Nam and read about people burning the flag. As a young man, I was naive and didn’t understand the protests, only that people were shooting at me and people back home didn’t support us. Now that I’m old, I realize that patriotism doesn’t mean chanting “USA” or singing the anthem or any other meaningless gestures. If someone wants to sit during the anthem, burn the flag (or use it for an adult diaper), it’s their business. I may think it’s tacky and worthy of an eye roll, but in terms of patriotism, it’s meaningless. People don’t die for a flag; they defend a way of life (generally speaking). If all you do is sit in your armchair, regurgitate patriotic slogans, bitch about the government and do nothing to make sure that that way of life works for all Americans, then you’re far less patriotic than a man who chooses to sit during the anthem. Instead of bitching about a sports figure sitting on his ass, how about getting off your own tired ass and making a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/199 "2016-09-01T17:41:38Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > \*‘No refuge could save the hireling and slave > From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:’ \* > > The consensus was that Francis Scott Key, an unrepentant racist ( as were most in his time ) was here sneering at the American slaves that had joined the British after being given promises of freedom if they enlisted. It’s really kind of a shit song IMHO. _America the Beautiful_ works better. The full stanza is, > [@](#): > > And where is that band who so vauntingly swore > That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion, > A home and a country, should leave us no more? > Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution. > No refuge could save the hireling and slave > From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave: > And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave, > O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. He’s wishing for their death or retreat, along with the white mercenaries also fighting on the British side. So that America wins, and endures as “a home and a country.” It’s a war song; of course it wishes for victory. FSK may have been stung by how his patriot comrades had fared against the black, former-slave Colonial Marines at Bladensburg, but he’s not calling for killing them _for_ being black. The black and white among the enemy are treated exactly equally, here. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/200 "2016-09-01T17:43:49Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > \*‘No refuge could save the hireling and slave > From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:’ \* > > The consensus was that Francis Scott Key, an unrepentant racist ( as were most in his time ) was here sneering at the American slaves that had joined the British after being given promises of freedom if they enlisted. It’s really kind of a shit song IMHO. _America the Beautiful_ works better. I don’t read that as racist. He viewed those that joined the British as traitors. How is this different than the North viewing the South as traitors? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=11)