# Flag/pledge/anthem whiners **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475 "2016-08-30T12:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![TheStake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@TheStake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheStake)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/201 "2016-09-01T17:51:29Z")
Look I’m not saying I personally give a flying fuck what that dude does. I’m saying its expected tradition, therefore it is just respectful to stand up. If you walked up to me and offered your hand as a gesture of respect in meeting me, I would shake it. I don’t have to, but that’s what is the normal response. Again, I don’t care that he didn’t stand. I still think that sort of makes him an asshole. I love my country, I love the people of this country. Including the assholes. So good luck to him and his free expression, I just don’t think it’s the best way to make a point. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/202 "2016-09-01T17:58:21Z")
> [@TheStake](#): > > Look I’m not saying I personally give a flying fuck what that dude does. I’m saying its expected tradition, therefore it is just respectful to stand up. If you walked up to me and offered your hand as a gesture of respect in meeting me, I would shake it. I don’t have to, but that’s what is the normal response. Again, I don’t care that he didn’t stand. I still think that sort of makes him an asshole. I love my country, I love the people of this country. Including the assholes. So good luck to him and his free expression, I just don’t think it’s the best way to make a point. On the other hand, if you refused to shake someone’s hand, you’d be making a point. The guy might say, “wow, what did I do to offend you?” Defying expectations often makes a point. Some people don’t like violent protest or non violent protests. ---
**Author:** ![TheStake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@TheStake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheStake)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/203 "2016-09-01T18:04:49Z")
That logic works for me. Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe it just hurts my sensibilities. However I see your point. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/204 "2016-09-01T18:28:39Z")
Some people just don’t like protests or rabblerousers. This isn’t about the flag or the anthem at all. If Kaepernick went and did a press conference about police brutality, I’d be the same people calling for his head now would object to that as well. Same thing if he simply tweeted his followers for police reform, or stood on a soapbox in the corner with a bullhorn. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/205 "2016-09-01T18:37:02Z")
What time and on what channel is tonight’s 49ers game? I want to watch the beginning to see the audience reaction. Do people boo him for not standing? What do those in the stands do during the national anthem? Are they playing on their phones, talking, etc? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/206 "2016-09-01T18:39:11Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > On the other hand, if you refused to shake someone’s hand, you’d be making a point. The guy might say, “wow, what did I do to offend you?” Defying expectations often makes a point. Some people don’t like violent protest or non violent protests. I think that’s actually a great response. If someone in a KKK robe, for instance. came up to me and wanted to shake my hand, I may simply refuse. Do people believe that the normal response should come up in that case? I’m not saying the flag is the KKK, but just that it being tradition or normal response is that compelling of an argument ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/207 "2016-09-01T18:42:52Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > What time and on what channel is tonight’s 49ers game? I want to watch the beginning to see the audience reaction. Do people boo him for not standing? What do those in the stands do during the national anthem? Are they playing on their phones, talking, etc? Of course they are. The anthem has become background noise for most people, I’d think. It’s seems obligatory for every sporting event other than maybe horseshoes. On the rare occasions when I attend a live sporting event, I stand and fidget until it’s done, as I don’t have a smart phone. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/208 "2016-09-01T19:31:59Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Of course they are. The anthem has become background noise for most people, I’d think. It’s seems obligatory for every sporting event other than maybe horseshoes. On the rare occasions when I attend a live sporting event, I stand and fidget until it’s done, as I don’t have a smart phone. Two sports where I don’t recall hearing the national anthem before the start of play: golf and bowling. Dopers, feel free to educate me if I’m wrong on this. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/209 "2016-09-01T19:37:48Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Two sports where I don’t recall hearing the national anthem before the start of play: golf and bowling. Dopers, feel free to educate me if I’m wrong on this. _Well damnit, those traitors should be forced to play it at every hole!_😛 ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/210 "2016-09-01T20:05:02Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Two sports where I don’t recall hearing the national anthem before the start of play: golf and bowling. Dopers, feel free to educate me if I’m wrong on this. Curling ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/211 "2016-09-01T20:07:36Z")
Also checkers. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/212 "2016-09-01T20:17:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > What time and on what channel is tonight’s 49ers game? I want to watch the beginning to see the audience reaction. Do people boo him for not standing? What do those in the stands do during the national anthem? Are they playing on their phones, talking, etc? I think it’s ESPN, and I don’t think the Anthem will be part of the broadcast. (It isn’t always.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/213 "2016-09-01T20:52:29Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > \*‘No refuge could save the hireling and slave > From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:’ \* > > The consensus was that Francis Scott Key, an unrepentant racist ( as were most in his time ) was here sneering at the American slaves that had joined the British . . . I’d never heard that before. Are you sure it’s a consensus view, and not just one speculation among many? To me, it seems obvious the line only denigrates the British, implying that it is a nation of hirelings and slaves, without anyone actually choosing to fight on their side. It’s a reference to impressment of military servicemen. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/214 "2016-09-01T21:38:58Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Also checkers. On this message board, boy, we play _chess_. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/215 "2016-09-01T21:41:30Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > FSK may have been stung by how his patriot comrades had fared against the black, former-slave Colonial Marines at Bladensburg, but he’s not calling for killing them _for_ being black. The black and white among the enemy are treated exactly equally, here. Not just his comrades, but himself - Key apparently fought at Bladensberg as a lieutenant and given his personal views on blacks I’d have to imagine he was also stinging pretty badly. I’ll grant he doesn’t single them out, but he was apparently pretty open about his views on black inferiority and was pro-slavery ( but pro-treating slaves “well” ). > [@Trinopus](#): > > I’d never heard that before. Are you sure it’s a consensus view, and not just one speculation among many? Well, you’ve got a partial point - I shouldn’t have said consensus. But I believe it is more than just one historian :). As I noted above, Key was quite certain about black inferiority and had just had the dubious honor of being beaten by said inferiors in battle at [Bladensburg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bladensburg). I take his words as plain - he was criticizing mercenaries( always a good punching bag ) and ex-slaves in the British army and contrasting those hirelings with good patriots. ETA: Ah, Snopes has a recent article on the [kerfuffle](http://www.snopes.com/2016/08/29/star-spangled-banner-and-slavery/). ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/216 "2016-09-01T21:47:23Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I believe the next line is “It’s a bullshit question”. Which it was. > > Except that, as stated previously, it’s a bullshit question, so there is actually no reasonable answer. In any event, I will assume by your total non-response that you withdraw the claim that you are boing ‘shouted down’ here. Glad we could straighten that out, at least. \*Mona Lisa: (scoffing) That’s a bullshit question. Jim Trotter: Does that mean that you can’t answer it? Mona Lisa: It’s a bullshit question, it’s impossible to answer. Jim Trotter: Impossible because you don’t know the answer! Mona Lisa: Nobody could answer that question! Jim Trotter: Your Honor, I move to disqualify Ms. Vito as a “expert witness”! Judge Haller: Can you answer the question? Mona Lisa: No, it is a trick question! Judge Haller: Why is it a trick question? Vinny: (to Bill) Watch this. Mona Lisa: 'Cause Chevy didn’t make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn’t come out till '62. And it wasn’t offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center. Jim Trotter: Well… um… she’s acceptable, Your Honor.\* The fictional Mona Lisa Vito WAS able to answer her question. Can you answer the up-thread question? Do you remember the question? Or is it impossible for you to do so? I will assume by your earlier total non-response that you incapable of answering a simple question. Keep up the good work. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/217 "2016-09-01T21:50:43Z")
Requiring athletes to perform a public political litmus test before engaging in a sporting event… that’s something you’d expect in China, or the USSR, or in North Korea. Why don’t we tow some Patriot missiles across the 50 yard line at halftime? It’s bizarre that we have this ongoing conversation about the separation of church and state, but the unity of sport and state is kind of a foregone conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/218 "2016-09-01T21:55:28Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > …ETA: Ah, Snopes has a recent article on the [kerfuffle](http://www.snopes.com/2016/08/29/star-spangled-banner-and-slavery/). (post shortened) According to the title of the Snopes article, _‘The Star-Spangled Banner’ and Slavery Is the legacy of black slavery enshrined in a lesser-known stanza of the U.S. national anthem, “The Star-Spangled Banner”? Some historians say yes_. I guess the debate continues? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/219 "2016-09-01T21:57:09Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I guess the debate continues? Like most historical debates, yes :). ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/220 "2016-09-01T22:11:21Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I’ll grant he doesn’t single them out, but he was apparently pretty open about his views on black inferiority and was pro-slavery ( but pro-treating slaves “well” ). Which puts him rather toward the progressive end, among white Americans of the day. (This was 44 years before Abraham Lincoln said, “there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I…am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”) In any case, the desired fate of the “slave” of the song is unquestionably joined to that of the “hireling.” And whether these words were meant strictly or not, they’re certainly talking about the Americans’ battlefield enemy, which comprised mostly white guys. There’s no contextual reading in which Key is _particularly_ interested in the “slaughter of slaves,” as some have put it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=12)