# Flag/pledge/anthem whiners **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475 "2016-08-30T12:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/261 "2016-09-05T16:47:20Z")
They play the national anthem at a regular soccer game? Okay, that weird already and I just opened he thread. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/262 "2016-09-05T16:56:22Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > They play the national anthem at a regular soccer game? > > Okay, that weird already and I just opened he thread. One of the weird things this story has taught me, as a non-American, is that apparently the national anthem gets played there at a great many normal, regular games. Very odd to this outsider, but hey, cultural differences. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/263 "2016-09-05T17:12:44Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > One of the weird things this story has taught me, as a non-American, is that apparently the national anthem gets played there at a great many normal, regular games. Yep. There are over 2,000 games in a regular Major League Baseball season, and the anthem is played at all of them. Well, all the ones played in America. It’s been a looooooooooooooong time since I’ve been to a Toronto home game (i.e., over 20 years). Do they play both anthems for every game? As an Australian sports fan, the only time i remember the anthem being played was for some (i don’t think all) international matches, in some (not all) sports. For instance, i’m not sure that i ever remember the anthem being played before the start of play at a cricket game, whether a test match or a one-day match. I do recall hearing it before some international rugby matches. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/264 "2016-09-05T17:46:25Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > There are over 2,000 games in a regular Major League Baseball season, and the anthem is played at all of them. > > Well, all the ones played in America. It’s been a looooooooooooooong time since I’ve been to a Toronto home game (i.e., over 20 years). Do they play both anthems for every game? I thought both anthems were played at _every_ Jays game (2,592 total anthems in 2,430 MLB season games). I’ve heard both every time I’ve seen them, and I’ve never attended a game in Toronto. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/265 "2016-09-05T17:51:40Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Also, I pit the idiot in civilian clothes who was saluting. Isn’t saluting appropriate, if he’s a veteran? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/266 "2016-09-05T18:12:36Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Isn’t saluting appropriate, if he’s a veteran? Beats me, and I’m a veteran. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/267 "2016-09-05T18:21:20Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Isn’t saluting appropriate, if he’s a veteran? > **[Rules for Saluting US Flag](https://www.military.com/flag-day/rules-for-saluting-us-flag.html)** > > Non uniformed servicemembers, military retirees, and veterans may render salute to flag. > [@](#): > > The National Defense Authorization Act of 2008 contained an amendment to allow un-uniformed servicemembers, military retirees, and veterans to render a hand salute during the hoisting, lowering, or passing of the U.S. flag. > > A later amendment further authorized hand-salutes during the national anthem by veterans and out-of-uniform military personnel. That implies it was not SOP before that, though I don’t know what the consequences would be for an unauthorized salute. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/268 "2016-09-05T18:30:58Z")
To add to **Fear Itself** ’s post, here’s the current language from Title 36 of the US Code: > [@](#): > > § 301 - National anthem > > (b) Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem— > > (1) when the flag is displayed— > > INDENT individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; > > (B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and > > (C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and > > (2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.[/INDENT] I think they should add something like: Penalty for failure to observe § 301 (b), and especially § 301 (b)(1)(C) and § 301 (b)(2), will consist of angry scolding by a bunch of self-righteous assholes who don’t really understand the liberties that the flag and anthem are supposed to represent. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/269 "2016-09-05T19:03:48Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That may be so, but still, it strikes me as “to serve and protect, as long as our pwecious feewings aren’t hurt.” That’s not a dispassionate and clear analysis, though – it’s just how it “strikes” you. In fact, the “protect and serve” (an LAPD motto that has via the magic of Los Angeles based TV cop shows been imputed to the rest of the country) applies to the on-duty police presence. The decision to accept, or refuse, private part-time work does not impinge on their “protect and serve,” motto at all. They are, in other words, not belted knights or clergy, sworn somehow to protect and serve until they draw their dying breath. They are workers, and they can refuse to hire on to an employer they don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/270 "2016-09-05T19:14:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not a dispassionate and clear analysis, though – it’s just how it “strikes” you. > > In fact, the “protect and serve” (an LAPD motto that has via the magic of Los Angeles based TV cop shows been imputed to the rest of the country) applies to the on-duty police presence. The decision to accept, or refuse, private part-time work does not impinge on their “protect and serve,” motto at all. They are, in other words, not belted knights or clergy, sworn somehow to protect and serve until they draw their dying breath. They are workers, and they can refuse to hire on to an employer they don’t like. A player quietly protesting isn’t their employer. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/271 "2016-09-05T21:35:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not a dispassionate and clear analysis, though – it’s just how it “strikes” you. > > In fact, the “protect and serve” (an LAPD motto that has via the magic of Los Angeles based TV cop shows been imputed to the rest of the country) applies to the on-duty police presence. The decision to accept, or refuse, private part-time work does not impinge on their “protect and serve,” motto at all. They are, in other words, not belted knights or clergy, sworn somehow to protect and serve until they draw their dying breath. They are workers, and they can refuse to hire on to an employer they don’t like. OK then how about an example closer to home for us? People quite understandably got upset about the ‘rough ride’ that caused Freddie Gray’s death. And the Baltimore police were sufficiently upset about the criticism that they reduced their presence in certain high-crime areas. How did that one strike you? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/272 "2016-09-05T21:53:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A player quietly protesting isn’t their employer. Well, no, but the police are arguing that the 49ers, who employ Kaepernick and who contract with the SCPD for game security, should have disciplined Kaepernick, or spoken out against his protest. They are protesting against the individual and against the team, the latter of which would be their effective employer in game-day situations. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK then how about an example closer to home for us? > > People quite understandably got upset about the ‘rough ride’ that caused Freddie Gray’s death. And the Baltimore police were sufficiently upset about the criticism that they reduced their presence in certain high-crime areas. > > How did that one strike you? I can’t speak for **Bricker** , but i imagine it strikes him somewhat differently, given that it is a rather different scenario from the one involving Kaepernick and the 49ers. While i happen to think the Santa Clara police are being silly, i acknowledge that they have a right not to work games if they don’t want to. In [related news](http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers-stadium/ci_30326623/santa-clara-police-chief-urges-officers-protect-public), the police chief in Santa Clara has urged his officers not to boycott 49er games: > [@](#): > > Chief Michael Sellers expressed sympathy for his officers, saying Kaepernick’s “distasteful” actions have “saddened and angered” many in the law enforcement community. But he noted that what the quarterback has done is protected by the same Constitution that officers have sworn to uphold. > > “Police officers are here to protect the rights of every person, even if we disagree with their position,” Sellers said. > > The chief added that he would urge the Santa Clara Police Officers’ Association, which threatened the boycott, to “put the safety of our citizens first.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/273 "2016-09-05T21:57:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A player quietly protesting isn’t their employer. Tru dat. And neither are the fans they’d be protecting from one another. Here’s another thing: I suppose it’s always possible that hiring of off-duty police for security at each 49ers game is done on an _ad hoc_ basis, that if they need 75 off-duty cops each week, then the first 75 to sign up are the ones who get the work. That’s essentially what **Bricker** is describing here: no obligation on anyone’s part to show up, just a haphazard thing. But I have a hard time believing that. An NFL team is a large and lucrative business, and is going to have its game security arrangements at least somewhat formalized. Given that the statement came from the head of the Santa Clara PD’s police union, my WAG would be that either the union itself, or more likely the Santa Clara PD, with the eager (until now) concurrence of the union, has an agreement with the 49ers to provide X number of off-duty police for game security. That is just a WAG, but I’d say it’s at least as plausible as the scenario that **Bricker** is proposing. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/274 "2016-09-05T22:03:49Z")
nm Accidental double post. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/275 "2016-09-05T22:10:40Z")
From the story i linked in my previous post: > [@](#): > > About 120 police officers work overtime shifts paid by the 49ers during game days, said Lt. Dan Moreno, a Santa Clara police spokesman. Of those, about 40 are employed by the city of Santa Clara, while the rest come from other Bay Area police agencies but work as part of the Santa Clara force during their game-day shifts, he said. > > Although the officers are paid by the 49ers, the game-day shifts are organized by Santa Clara police, and the officers are on official duty during them, Moreno said. But because the shifts are voluntary, the department can’t discipline officers who refuse to volunteer, he said. So, even if the team has an agreement with the SC Police Force, there’s nothing to stop individual cops, at the urging of their union (or not), from declining to work the games. As i suggested in an earlier post, in that case they could hire more police from outside Santa Clara. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/276 "2016-09-06T00:34:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A player quietly protesting isn’t their employer. And a loaf of rye bread isn’t their employer. OK, your turn. Or, on the off chance you were not beginning a game of “List things that were not their employer,” and instead believed that you were making some relevant argument… you were not. The officers presumably want Kaepernick’s employer to take some action against him, and because that employer has not, they are displeased. And that employer … wait for it… _IS_ their employer! Did not see that one coming, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/277 "2016-09-06T00:42:41Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK then how about an example closer to home for us? > > People quite understandably got upset about the ‘rough ride’ that caused Freddie Gray’s death. And the Baltimore police were sufficiently upset about the criticism that they reduced their presence in certain high-crime areas. > > How did that one strike you? Much differently. If it happened (and I say that only because I have not heard about it, not because I find it less than credible) it involved officers executing their official, full-time duty. When they are doing so, they have an obligation to follow their superiors’ orders, and those superiors ultimately have an absolute obligation to deploy police resources without retribution for criticism of police actions. In short, if Baltimore’s motto were “Protect and serve,” then you’d be well within your “strikes me” rights to be struck by that action. And even though the Baltimore Police _actual_ motto is: _Semper Paratus, Semper Fideles, Ever on the Watch_, this holds true, so your strikiness can survive your motto confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/278 "2016-09-06T00:56:57Z")
Well, the police officers are voluntary and making extra money for it, so if they’re such wilting little flowers, they don’t have to volunteer any further. No one is holding a gun to their head. I’m sure others will step in and take the money. The need is for only a small number of the police officers in the county. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/279 "2016-09-06T04:26:49Z")
This article has a photo of the offending socks. It is the right of the Santa Clara cops not to work off duty for an organization which permits one of its employees to wear such terrible socks without reprimand. After judiciously weighing the evidence I opine that such cops are cosmically butthurt. The article also includes a statement by Colin Kaepernick: [INDENT][INDENT] I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately. [/INDENT][/INDENT] I say it’s a bad thing when people put cops that have the right intentions in danger. I also don’t like distractions from the real issues. But I understand that others disagree with this, and I won’t boycott anyone who doesn’t hold such views. > **[The Epoch Times - Truth & Tradition. Fact Based. Unbiased. Accurate News](https://www.theepochtimes.com/)** > > The Epoch Times is an independent news media organization in print and online. It's rated as the most neutral among top media in an AllSides™ survey. Vox on why the US stands for the national anthem before commercial sports games: > **[It’s actually very strange for sports games to begin with the national anthem](https://www.vox.com/2016/9/3/12774172/colin-kaepernick-national-anthem-why)** > > A key point that Trump doesn’t grasp. [INDENT][INDENT] Patriotism in professional sports isn’t actually about patriotism. It’s a pantomime, a performance designed to tap into Americans’ national pride without enhancing it. Playing the national anthem isn’t an honor for the nation in any meaningful sense; it’s turning the “Star-Spangled Banner” into an advertising jingle. [/INDENT][/INDENT] Incidentally, there was a great deal of concern in the early 20th century about the commercialization of the US flag. Codes were constructed to curb such potential. America. It’s a great country. Why do too many people insist on cheapening it with puerile and empty displays? Don’t worry, I won’t name names. For now. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/280 "2016-09-06T04:46:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And a loaf of rye bread isn’t their employer. > > OK, your turn. > > Or, on the off chance you were not beginning a game of “List things that were not their employer,” and instead believed that you were making some relevant argument… you were not. > > The officers presumably want Kaepernick’s employer to take some action against him, and because that employer has not, they are displeased. > > And that employer … wait for it… _IS_ their employer! > > Did not see that one coming, eh? Take _what_ action for quietly and legally protesting what he sees as an injustice? What rule has he broken? What the flying fuck would they, and you, suppose would be a legal punishment they could impose against this man for kneeling? Unlike the police, they can’t just “accidentally” shut off some cameras and beat the shit out of him, or shoot him in “self-defense”, so what the hell is being asked of the team, exactly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=15)