# Flag/pledge/anthem whiners **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475 "2016-08-30T12:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/281 "2016-09-06T04:52:42Z")
“Hey guys, we’re burning jerseys of this one NFL player who’s a real scumbag!” “You mean Roy Rice, who beat up his girlfriend on camera?” “No…” “You mean one of the 44 players currently accused of rape?” “No…” “You mean that one dude who punched his pregnant girlfriend in the face?” “No! We mean that asshole who refused to stand for the national anthem and wore socks we find mildly offensive!” ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/282 "2016-09-06T07:50:18Z")
What really gets me is the statement by Frank Saunders, president of the Santa Clara Police Officers Association, that “the 49ers are allowing this to come out from an employee and it’s making for a hostile work environment for us at the stadium.” Really? Police deal with armed criminals, obnoxious combative drunks, arrestees who punch, bite and spit, and many other types of violent situations. And _this_ is a hostile work environment? A guy criticizes them in a way they don’t like, and it’s too much for them to take? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/283 "2016-09-06T11:15:33Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > What really gets me is the statement by Frank Saunders, president of the Santa Clara Police Officers Association, that “the 49ers are allowing this to come out from an employee and it’s making for a hostile work environment for us at the stadium.” > > Really? > > Police deal with armed criminals, obnoxious combative drunks, arrestees who punch, bite and spit, and many other types of violent situations. And _this_ is a hostile work environment? A guy criticizes them in a way they don’t like, and it’s too much for them to take? Maybe they should quit coming to work until people start respecting their authoritay? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/284 "2016-09-06T12:11:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, no. You liberals run crying to the courts to assuage your distress. And you carry signs and chant slogans. Conservatives exercise the free market and simply choose not to work for objectionable employers. This strikes fear into most liberals, who rely on conservatives to work while the liberals leech off society. See, e.g., “Atlas Shrugged.” > > As long as we’re slinging useless stereotypes about, anyway. What are examples of liberals running crying to the courts? I can’t think of any. Liberals leech off society? I didn’t know Cliven Bundy was a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/285 "2016-09-06T13:57:54Z")
Well looking at it from a few paces back, you could maybe do with getting over the whole anthem thing in the first place - it really is weird; a little over … something. Overwrought, maybe? Then maybe think about the bolt upright chest clutching or whatever that is. The world doesn’t do that so much. It looks like you need a paramedic. And then there’s Team USA flag badges on office suits: why not just get whole suit tailor out of flags, perhaps with Lincoln-style hat. Then whoever you’re meeting will be really impressed. And outside your house - why? is there a website where you can get the whole Team USA kit? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/286 "2016-09-06T15:32:26Z")
In curious, for those people who are vehemently against protests by Kaepernick or BLM, how would you suggest people publicly protest bad cops while not accidentally tarring good cops? How would you suggest that issues of police brutality get resolved? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/287 "2016-09-06T15:43:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What are examples of liberals running crying to the courts? I can’t think of any. Liberals leech off society? I didn’t know Cliven Bundy was a liberal. It’s sometimes difficult to tell, but I believe _Bricker_ was being sarcastic. Surely even \*he \*doesn’t care for _Atlas Shrugged._ ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/288 "2016-09-06T15:59:09Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > In curious, for those people who are vehemently against protests by Kaepernick or BLM, how would you suggest people publicly protest bad cops while not accidentally tarring good cops? How would you suggest that issues of police brutality get resolved? You silly boy. Only patriotic white conservatives are allowed to protest, which is the highest form of [descent](https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3555/3462246191_6f68ffa6dc.jpg). 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/289 "2016-09-06T19:20:11Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If the Santa Clara cops decide not to work the games, my first call (if i owned the 49ers) might be to the San Francisco PD. Maybe see if any of those city cops are missing the extra pay they used to get for working football games at Candlestick Park. Of course, having ditched San Francisco for the South Bay, the team might not get much support, and the SF cops might also stay out in solidarity with their Santa Clara colleagues. > > To be honest, my bet in this case is that the police union’s threat to not work games won’t come to anything. I like my own faculty union, and i think they do some good work for us as employees, but i don’t agree with everything they do, and i wouldn’t necessarily support every cause they promote. I’m betting that there are plenty of cops in the US who don’t always have much time for some of the loudmouth idiots that seem to populate the leadership positions at some police unions. > > And, as you suggest, there’s always private security firms. Hell, those might come cheaper than police, although then you might get something like [this](http://deadspin.com/fake-cops-under-fire-for-beating-shit-out-of-houston-fa-1746471340) at the games. Do you KNOW any cops? Because some of them are taking this demonization kinda personal. I happen to think this widespread demonization is a good thing because it will make cops start to realize that staying quiet about those few bad apples makes them all look bad. But I don’t see cops ignoring that sort of boycott. And that means that a few fans might also decide to just watch the game from home. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/290 "2016-09-06T19:30:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Do you KNOW any cops? Because some of them are taking this demonization kinda personal. I happen to think this widespread demonization is a good thing because it will make cops start to realize that staying quiet about those few bad apples makes them all look bad. > > But I don’t see cops ignoring that sort of boycott. And that means that a few fans might also decide to just watch the game from home. There is some truth to your first paragraph, and like you, i really hope that the current conversation about police violence and misconduct will encourage good officers to speak out more often against bad ones. But i think that the point you make is, perhaps, contradicted a little bit by the second paragraph. I think there are probably a significant number of police officers who don’t like the demonization, but who also recognize that it has emerged, in considerable measure, as a consequence of some very troubling systemic problems with a wide variety of police departments. Have you read the DoJ report on the Baltimore Police Department? It’s pretty damning, and i’ll bet it’s not the only department where such stuff occurs on a regular basis. But even in a department like Baltimore’s, which had a wide range of problems that were sustained and enabled by institutional incompetence and lack of proper training, there were quite a number of officers who clearly tried to do the job properly, and were uncomfortable with the bad behavior of their colleagues. And i’m sure there are plenty of police in departments all over the US who feel the same way. There are plenty of cops in the US who aren’t really represented very well by some of the reactionary assholes who speak for police unions. And for that reason, while you might get a lot of police supporting a boycott like the one suggested in Santa Clara, i’d be willing to bet that you might also find quite a few who say to themselves, “Fuck that. Kaepernick has a point; i don’t care whether or not the 49ers punish him; and i want the overtime.” Now, in cases like this, i’m not sure if the police unions expect 100% solidarity from their members, but i’ll be interested to see whether there is a completely united front on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/291 "2016-09-06T19:34:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That may be so, but still, it strikes me as “to serve and protect, as long as our pwecious feewings aren’t hurt.” > > And boy howdy, has this been the year of the men in blue getting in a snit because someone’s hurt their pwecious feewings, or what? It seems like anytime anyone says anything that either concurs that yes, some police have committed unjustifiable killings, or that Black Lives Matter might have a point, they have to turn their backs on a mayor, or their union reps have to equate BLM with terrorists, and so forth. The NYC mayor is a dickhead and I pretty much support any criticism of the guy. There might even be something to the rumors that he fucks underaged sheep. BLM should be more selective about who they choose as martyrs. Some of those guys and the circumstances of their death are not really helping their cause. What do you expect the policeman’s union to do? Take up common cause with BLM? You have to beat them not henpeck them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/292 "2016-09-06T19:41:18Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > To add to **Fear Itself** ’s post, here’s the current language from Title 36 of the US Code:I think they should add something like: > > Penalty for failure to observe § 301 (b), and especially § 301 (b)(1)(C) and § 301 (b)(2), will consist of angry scolding by a bunch of self-righteous assholes who don’t really understand the liberties that the flag and anthem are supposed to represent. Its more than a little ironic that the those that defend this guy on the basis that he is just expressing his opinion are critical of other expressing theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/293 "2016-09-06T19:49:28Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well, the police officers are voluntary and making extra money for it, so if they’re such wilting little flowers, they don’t have to volunteer any further. No one is holding a gun to their head. > > I’m sure others will step in and take the money. The need is for only a small number of the police officers in the county. So, you think that individual police will cross that sort of picket line (even if there are no pickets)? Maybe, but I doubt it. I doubt that any police will cross that line in that stadium and if it gets off the ground, it might affect their away games as well. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/294 "2016-09-06T19:52:15Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > In curious, for those people who are vehemently against protests by Kaepernick or BLM, how would you suggest people publicly protest bad cops while not accidentally tarring good cops? How would you suggest that issues of police brutality get resolved? Vote the bums out. If mayors start losing elections because of police brutality, the police stop being brutal. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/295 "2016-09-06T19:56:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its more than a little ironic that the those that defend this guy on the basis that he is just expressing his opinion are critical of other expressing theirs. No one is saying anyone can’t express their opinion. But all free speech is subject to rebuttal. You are only guaranteed the right to express it, you are not guaranteed there won’t be others with a conflicting opinion. Yours, mine and his. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/296 "2016-09-06T20:01:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its more than a little ironic that the those that defend this guy on the basis that he is just expressing his opinion are critical of other expressing theirs. No irony at all. The thing about freedom of expression is that it applies to smart things and dumb things; it applies to good expression and bad expression; it applies to saints and to assholes alike. And, in fact, another part of freedom of expression is the freedom to evaluate the positions taken by other people. Criticizing the position take by one person or group, while supporting the completely different position taken by another person or group, poses no ironic or paradoxical problems whatsoever for my ideas about freedom of expression. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/297 "2016-09-06T20:13:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Vote the bums out. If mayors start losing elections because of police brutality, the police stop being brutal. This is a rather clueless suggestion. Who are you voting IN by doing this? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/298 "2016-09-07T16:12:29Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > No irony at all. > > The thing about freedom of expression is that it applies to smart things and dumb things; it applies to good expression and bad expression; it applies to saints and to assholes alike. > > And, in fact, another part of freedom of expression is the freedom to evaluate the positions taken by other people. Criticizing the position take by one person or group, while supporting the completely different position taken by another person or group, poses no ironic or paradoxical problems whatsoever for my ideas about freedom of expression. Of course its ironic. Kaepernick is expressing himself. People ar4e criticizing him and others are criticizing his critics by pointing out that Kaepernick is just exercising his freedom of expression. His critics are not immune from criticism and neither is he. but criticizing his critics for stifling him or something like that is fucking ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/299 "2016-09-07T16:18:19Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > This is a rather clueless suggestion. Who are you voting IN by doing this? :dubious: To date, has BLM endorsed any politicians? No? They can’t find a single fucking politician that they can support? They can’t produce a single one? Why do you think that is? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/300 "2016-09-07T16:27:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Vote the bums out. If mayors start losing elections because of police brutality, the police stop being brutal. That’s it? So, illegal killings go on, people don’t get punished, and your only suggestion is maybe they organize enough people to vote them out? What would you suggest they do about the injustice that’s already occurred? Let it go? Some black guy gets killed, the mayor and police chief gets voted out, and that’s it? Nobody goes to jail, no policies get changed, no new law gets passed, no compensation for the family? What if they don’t get voted out? Should these people just have to accept that the general public is ok with these type of killings? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=16)