# Flag/pledge/anthem whiners **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475 "2016-08-30T12:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/341 "2016-09-08T18:59:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you understand the concept of “begging the question?” > > This is a logical fallacy in which the premise of an argument includes the assumption that the conclusion is true. > > In this case, one issue in play is the police belief that Kaepernik’s opinion is not “rightful.” You cannot assume the police are wrong in order to demonstrate they are wrong – this is _begging the question._ No, it is not. It doesn’t matter whether the police think it is rightful. The guy saying it does, and there’s no factual rebuttal. They are upset because the guy said something that hurt their feelings. Why don’t you practice the prinicple of charity, and not pick the one interpretation that makes your opponent out to be wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/342 "2016-09-08T19:00:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > To be honest, if a police officer can’t take it when someone say “fuck the police,” then I think they are too dangerous to have on the force. At least you’re clear on what Kaepernick is saying. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/343 "2016-09-08T19:19:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you understand the concept of “begging the question?” > > This is a logical fallacy in which the premise of an argument includes the assumption that the conclusion is true. > > In this case, one issue in play is the police belief that Kaepernik’s opinion is not “rightful.” You cannot assume the police are wrong in order to demonstrate they are wrong – this is _begging the question._ No such assumption. It is his rightful opinion, there is no question of it. And they can completely go fuck themselves if they are hurt by it. I have zero sympathy for those police officers and their “feelings”. Perhaps they should spend some time, any time, on removing the bad actors that cause this kind of rampant public perception. But they won’t, which proves that they are all bad actors. Gang members and thugs who are offended by people dissing their gang. I had a violin made out of 5 photons to play for them, but I seem to have misplaced it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/344 "2016-09-08T19:36:26Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, it is not. It doesn’t matter whether the police think it is rightful. The guy saying it does, and there’s no factual rebuttal. They are upset because the guy said something that hurt their feelings. > > Why don’t you practice the prinicple of charity, and not pick the one interpretation that makes your opponent out to be wrong? I have read this paragraph no less than ten times, and I still cannot suss out the argument you’re making. Why doesn’t it matter what the police think again? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/345 "2016-09-08T20:11:07Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No such assumption. It is his rightful opinion, there is no question of it. Is “rightful,” a synonym for “accurate,” or does it mean something like, “it’s an opinion which he has the _right_ to hold?” > [@](#): > > And they can completely go fuck themselves if they are hurt by it. I have zero sympathy for those police officers and their “feelings”. Are you laboring under the belief that your sympathy is a necessary prerequisite for the officers’ exercise of their rights? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/346 "2016-09-08T20:16:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, they do. > > Not only do they have their own personal First Amendment right to tell other officers not to work, they have the union structure to work with. > > This is not a strike – but when a union strikes, presumably each and every member is not in agreement with the decision. But the union acts anyway, and has every right to tell every member not to work. But how does the union mechanism work in this case? I’m a member of a union, and we do not go on strike or take other actions like this without actually putting it to a vote of the union. Our union leaders can stand up there and tell us what they think we should do, in our own best interests, but the members do not have to comply with the leaders’ exhortations. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/347 "2016-09-08T20:39:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > At least you’re clear on what Kaepernick is saying. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s what he said? Because if we can take his actual words and change them to fit our views, I’m going to go with him saying, “Bacon is awesome!”, and wonder WTF these guys are pissed off about. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/348 "2016-09-08T20:43:01Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > [Two Seahawks mulling sitting out the anthem.](http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/seahawks-doug-baldwin-bobby-wagner-considering-expanding-anthem-protest/) [update](http://www.thescore.com/news/1096225): The many of team members support those players and there was talk of a large-scale display on Sunday. However, Sunday is the Eleventh, which would probably lead to some serious bad feelings toward them, so the players have said that they plan some sort of “demonstration of unity”. I suspect that that will be separate from the playing of the anthem, so as not to upset “patriotic” Americans. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/349 "2016-09-09T16:14:24Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > That’s what he said? Because if we can take his actual words and change them to fit our views, I’m going to go with him saying, “Bacon is awesome!”, and wonder WTF these guys are pissed off about. Bacon IS awesome! ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/350 "2016-09-09T16:18:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Bacon IS awesome! I always sit down when it’s served. Fuck you if you don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/351 "2016-09-09T17:25:54Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I always sit down when it’s served. Fuck you if you don’t like it. Hahahaha. You must be a Democrat. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/352 "2016-09-09T17:30:28Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hahahaha. You must be a Democrat. 😃 So Democrats don’t care what other people do or think as long as they’re not hurting anyone, while Republicans are over-sensitive whiners who demand everyone conform to their personal preferences? Glad we got that cleared up! ---
**Author:** ![TheStake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@TheStake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheStake)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/353 "2016-09-09T17:43:14Z")
Damn, feisty. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/354 "2016-09-09T18:38:09Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I suppose the Mayor can be held accountable…too. To some degree. But that’s not the first step. Hold a dirty cop responsible for his actions first. If police start losing their jobs/going to jail because of police brutality, the police stop being brutal. I totally agree. Cops have to be held accountable but that sort of change comes from the top. There is a toxic culture of enabling bad behavior among cops. Its not like the cops don’t know who the bad cops are. There are videos of cops doing clearly illegal shit like shooting people that are running away from them or shooting people that are already handcuffed. And the other cops act like they didn’t see what happened. If we didn’t have video proof, I don’t know if the other cops would admit that a fellow cop had done something wrong. You need someone in authority whose job depends on accountability among cops. That’s all we really want isn’t it? If you kill someone that you shouldn’t have, then you should be held accountable. If the job is too fucking hard to do without killing people that oughtn’t be killed then get an easier job, this job is not for you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/355 "2016-09-09T18:40:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why should they endorse a candidate? And why is the absence of an endorsement some kind of gotcha? I’m not trying to “gotcha” anyone. But if you are upset about a problem and have no idea what the answer is, then maybe you should look into that. What exactly do they want? If they don’t really know then this thing is going to fade away like occupy wall street. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/356 "2016-09-09T18:50:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you understand the concept of “begging the question?” > > This is a logical fallacy in which the premise of an argument includes the assumption that the conclusion is true. > > In this case, one issue in play is the police belief that Kaepernik’s opinion is not “rightful.” You cannot assume the police are wrong in order to demonstrate they are wrong – this is _begging the question._ I think he means that Kaepernick has a right to his opinion (but apparently the cops do not) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/357 "2016-09-09T18:57:14Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s fun seeing all the conservatives suddenly support unions. They were the horrible boogeyman before. But now that they are cops who want to punish the black guy for not standing for the pledge of allegiance or wearing socks that hurt their feelings, you suddenly support them. Conservatives have ALWAYS supported police and firefighter’s unions. > [@](#): > > But, either way, you have to look at the actual actions. The actions of this guy are to not stand for the pledge, and to have some socks that say something offensive. Yes its just disrespect towards every man and woman that has ever fought or died for this country to make a point about police brutality that was being very well made well before he came along. > [@](#): > > The actions of the police/security guards is to allow other people to be hurt. It is to use the fact that they are de facto protectors as leverage to silence someone’s speech. They might as well have written “Nice place you got here. It would be a shame if something were to happen to it.” No, it is to force the NFL to find alternative security or cancel the game. Plenty of ball parks use private security. > [@](#): > > I support protests. I support strikes for adverse conditions. I do not support threats, and that is what this is. To be honest, if a police officer can’t take it when someone say “fuck the police,” then I think they are too dangerous to have on the force. The whole point of being a police officer is to protect those freedoms. So if a policeman decides that they don’t want to work in a neighborhood where people are saying fuck the police then they shouldn’t be policemen anywhere? That makes them dangerous? You make it sound like the police are threatening to shoot people that attend the football game. > [@](#): > > Yeah, it can sometimes feel like a thankless job. But that’s the price you pay for the authority you are given. We should not worship our authority figures, but hold them more accountable. Sure but they still have rights. Right? > [@](#): > > If we would have from the start, BLM would have never needed to exist, and thus this one guy’s protest would have never existed. Instead, they’ve made the guy into a rallying cry, giving him way more publicity than ever. This guy is an asshole. BLM keeps picking really bad poster children. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/358 "2016-09-09T19:03:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think he means that Kaepernick has a right to his opinion (but apparently the cops do not) No, I didn’t say that either. They have every right to their opinions and I thank them for expressing them. I like knowing where people stand and now we know they’re easily butthurt cowards and assholes. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/359 "2016-09-09T19:51:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes its just disrespect towards every man and woman that has ever fought or died for this country to make a point about police brutality that was being very well made well before he came along. This is asinine. The anthem and the flag and the pledge do not belong to the military, are not the exclusive purview of the military, and do not represent only the military. They represent that nation. Nor is the military the only, or even the most important, representative of the nation. Failure to stand for the anthem or the flag or the pledge need not be a sign of disrespect for the military. In fact, in the absence of a specific assertion on the part of the party making the gesture that the gesture is aimed at the military, the default assumption should be that the protest has nothing to do with the military. The fact that so many people assume the opposite is a depressing indicator of how deeply the unreflective worship of the military has become among American ignoramuses. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/360 "2016-09-09T20:36:51Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No, I didn’t say that either. They have every right to their opinions and I thank them for expressing them. I like knowing where people stand and now we know they’re easily butthurt cowards and assholes. Cowards? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=19)