# Flag/pledge/anthem whiners **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475 "2016-08-30T12:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/21 "2016-08-30T15:44:13Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Before any of this he would be playing back up at best. Except for his inflated contract based on one good year he is largely irrelevant in football. Maybe the publicity will help him. His play isn’t. [He already is the backup.](https://theringer.com/colin-kaepernick-san-francisco-49ers-nfl-preseason-696f1ed52404#.j2vmj73f6) > [@Hamlet](#): > > One can agree wholeheartedly that Kaep has every right in the world to express his opinion, and not have to “applaud his personal decision”. I don’t go around applauding the KKK or Trump supporters yelling at Black Lives Matter protestors, even while I agree they have the right to do what they do. Where did I say one “has to” applaud his decision? _I_ applaud his decision. That doesn’t mean anyone else has to. > [@Hamlet](#): > > Again, recognizing someone has a right does not mean I, or you, have to support them using that right in any way they wish. And exercising a right, simply because you have it, doesn’t make you a “True American”. > > And some of the consequences to exercising your right is to accept criticism for the exercise of that right. I fully agree with what you’re saying. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, of course. I never said anyone has to support his decision. Although I disagree that, at least in the US, exercising a right _does_ make you a “true American”. Because you have that right, and choose to exercise it (or choose not to–that’s what democratic freedoms are all about). Finally, I believe Kaepernick _is_ willing to accept any and all criticism for his decision, as I posted before, if we take him at his word. I’m not going to say you’re arguing with my post in particular, but I don’t get the perceived anger in your post. Unless I’m misinterpreting, I pretty much agree with what you said. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/22 "2016-08-30T15:47:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Colin Kaepernick (who?) made a personal decision to stand up by sitting down. However, he decided to drag the NFL and his fellow professional athletes in to his personal protest. right? BLM is not really a “personal protest.” A lot of Americans are concerned with police violence and accountability. I’m generally opposed to public displays of patriotism, so I like this guy’s gesture. (Althiough as a Seahawk fan, I’ve never really liked the guy) Not that it matters much, I predict this whole thing will blow over in about a week. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/23 "2016-08-30T15:51:39Z")
Forced reverence or forced fear of a symbol is worse than a display of indifference. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/24 "2016-08-30T15:55:18Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > BLM is not really a “personal protest.” A lot of Americans are concerned with police violence and accountability. > > I’m generally opposed to public displays of patriotism, so I like this guy’s gesture. (Althiough as a Seahawk fan, I’ve never really liked the guy) > > Not that it matters much, I predict this whole thing will blow over in about a week. Has this asshole actually claimed that he’s championing the only Black Lives Matter movement? If this asshole’s personal choice isn’t a “personal protest”, what is it? Should I assume it’s a “government protest”? A “players protest”? A “union protest”? Who does this asshole represent, besides himself? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/25 "2016-08-30T15:57:18Z")
When will the absurd habit of labeling anyone who happens to hold a different belief an asshole end? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/26 "2016-08-30T15:58:16Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > when are you progressives … > … You calling me a progressive?? Thank you. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > when are you progressives gonna accept that every country and societies minorities face discrimination? Its a lot worse in many countries outside America. > > … Yeah, thanks. That was in question? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/27 "2016-08-30T16:03:49Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Colin Kaepernick (who?) made a personal decision to stand up by sitting down. However, he decided to drag the NFL and his fellow professional athletes in to his personal protest. _Hey! Look at me! Talk about me amongst yourselves! I’m much more recognizable - NOW!_ > > I guess that makes Kaepernick a flag/pledge/anthem whiner. > > Just as asshole Kaepernick has a right to protest the actions of others, others have the right to protest the actions of Kaepernick. Fuck him and the horse (figuratively-speaking) he rode to a highly paid position in professional sports. I choose not to watch him play. I choose not to watch his team play. I choose not to buy any product from a company who chooses to hire him to endorse their products. > > Everyone has a right to non-violent protest, right? While one’s beliefs may make him an asshole to others, exercising one’s First Amendment rights does not. His small protest was no different than the Black Power salutes given in the '68 Olympics. They took a lot of heat for that, but in the end the point was made. I’m more annoyed by the media keeping this non-event alive because they’re having slow news days than I am about some guy sitting while others are standing. Much ado about absolutely nothing. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/28 "2016-08-30T16:06:22Z")
Fucking right wingers can’t fucking stop their fucking whining. They fucking love freedom so fucking much, except for the freedom to not act the way they do. Last fucking time I fucking checked, you had the fucking freedom to stand or not fucking stand as you saw fit. It’s nobody else’s fucking business. Know what, assholes? Some people don’t want to be your fucking puppets, they want to live their own fucking lives the way they want to. They may not look like you, they may not pray like you, they may not get a boner every time they see the flag, they may not feel like standing or putting their hands on their hearts. It’s called freedom, and if right wingers loved freedom as much as they fucking pretend, they’d shut the fuck up about it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/29 "2016-08-30T16:11:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fucking right wingers can’t fucking stop their fucking whining. They fucking love freedom so fucking much, except for the freedom to not act the way they do. Last fucking time I fucking checked, you had the fucking freedom to stand or not fucking stand as you saw fit. It’s nobody else’s fucking business. Know what, assholes? Some people don’t want to be your fucking puppets, they want to live their own fucking lives the way they want to. They may not look like you, they may not pray like you, they may not get a boner every time they see the flag, they may not feel like standing or putting their hands on their hearts. It’s called freedom, and if right wingers loved freedom as much as they fucking pretend, they’d shut the fuck up about it. Look on the floor. You may have dropped some meds. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/30 "2016-08-30T16:19:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fucking right wingers can’t fucking stop their fucking whining. They fucking love freedom so fucking much, except for the freedom to not act the way they do. Last fucking time I fucking checked, you had the fucking freedom to stand or not fucking stand as you saw fit. It’s nobody else’s fucking business. Know what, assholes? Some people don’t want to be your fucking puppets, they want to live their own fucking lives the way they want to. They may not look like you, they may not pray like you, they may not get a boner every time they see the flag, they may not feel like standing or putting their hands on their hearts. It’s called freedom, and if right wingers loved freedom as much as they fucking pretend, they’d shut the fuck up about it. A public figure makes a symbolic gesture in public, has press conferences about it, makes statements about it on social media and is making every attempt to make this into a news event. But it’s nobody else’s fucking business. Someone didn’t notice him sitting and asked him about it. He announced it to the world. He is trying very hard to make it every one’s business. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/31 "2016-08-30T16:21:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You underestimate the importance of symbolism. Yeah, it’s just a pice of cloth, you say. But people salute it with pride. People fight for it to remain flying. Coffins get draped with it. Yeah, you don’t understand the power and importance of symbolism. If history teaches (some of) us anything, it’s that people will stand and salute pretty much any goddamn fool thing you can convince them to salute. So the more important question is, do people have the freedom not to salute? ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/32 "2016-08-30T16:23:33Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Colin Kaepernick (who?) made a personal decision to stand up by sitting down. However, he decided to drag the NFL and his fellow professional athletes in to his personal protest. _Hey! Look at me! Talk about me amongst yourselves! I’m much more recognizable - NOW!_ Since you don’t know who Kaepernick is, you wouldn’t realize that he didn’t stand for the anthem at _any_ of the three preseason games. Nobody noticed during the first two games, though, because he wasn’t in uniform until this most recent one. It’s not Kaepernick who is dragging the NFL into a protest or calling attention to himself. NOBODY NOTICED until the media pointed him out (with a highlighted picture!) during this most recent game. Once the “patriotic” fans got riled up with the media egging things on, _then_ he issued a public statement. You can’t really say Kaepernick is doing this for personal attention or any advancement of any kind - as he freely admits, this could cost him job and endorsement prospects, and he’s okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/33 "2016-08-30T16:28:55Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > A public figure makes a symbolic gesture in public, has press conferences about it, makes statements about it on social media and is making every attempt to make this into a news event. But it’s nobody else’s fucking business. **Someone didn’t notice him sitting and asked him about it. He announced it to the world.** He is trying very hard to make it every one’s business. Re-reading the bolded part, yeah, you’re actually wrong here. Like I said, NOBODY NOTICED during the first two games, until the fans and media saw him not standing when he was in uniform this last time. Of course he’s going to respond and explain his position when he’s asked about it. Now I would agree if he really thought his action would actually have any effect in improving the situation re: minorities and police, that would mean somebody would have to know that was the reason behind his action. Which means he’d need somebody to notice. Just the fact he didn’t stand up for a song isn’t going to change the rules of engagement for police departments. I can’t speak for Kaepernick, but it seems to me his action in not standing is a personal decision, that he can’t do that to respect the symbol of a country that he feels is failing in a specific aspect. I believe he would be doing it whether or not anybody noticed or asked him about it. But I don’t know him … I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/34 "2016-08-30T16:30:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If history teaches (some of) us anything, it’s that people will stand and salute pretty much any goddamn fool thing you can convince them to salute. > > So the more important question is, do people have the freedom not to salute? You aren’t asking me but I think so. Just like they have the freedom to fly the flag they wish. Or burn it. The freedom to associate with whom they wish. Or not be forced to. The freedom to go to whatever place of worship they wish. Even wear hair long and full of bugs. What’s the point of forced conformity? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/35 "2016-08-30T16:31:55Z")
Instead of talking about the what Kaepernick is doing or not doing to America, I’d rather every time something like this happens, we focus exclusively on the issue the person is trying to address. The prevalence of police on black crime is too great for a county like ours that isn’t mired in civil war or controlled partially by warlords and cartels. Police should not be so afraid of black people that shooting them is often the first and last option. And yes, we’re all aware of the prevalence of black on black crime, but the difference is, that stuff is already a crime, is already an issue people want to fix, and we’re all in agreement that its bad. Police on black crime is seemingly a state-supported, ignored issue that white people and the police in general want to let continue. While I don’t think Kaepernick will get anywhere with his protest, I support it because it draws attention to the matter. The people who are angry with it likely don’t see a problem anyway, so pissing them off is fine. I hope he can devote some time and money to combatting the problem of police brutality in this country on behalf of black people and others victimized by those who are sworn to help them ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/36 "2016-08-30T16:33:14Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > A public figure makes a symbolic gesture in public, has press conferences about it, makes statements about it on social media and is making every attempt to make this into a news event. But it’s nobody else’s fucking business. Someone didn’t notice him sitting and asked him about it. He announced it to the world. He is trying very hard to make it every one’s business. Yes, he’s publicizing the plight of some segments of the black population in America, and showing support for their protests. He’s not the first public figure to use his name to promote an agenda. As a minor sports figure, if he had just stepped in front of a microphone and stated his issue, it wouldn’t have been more than a note on the local news hour. This action draws national attention to it. The trend in this country towards uber-patriotism is far more alarming to me than his actions, which are far from being unpatriotic. Flag wavers are positively frothing at the mouth on social media. It’s obscene. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/37 "2016-08-30T16:38:40Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If history teaches (some of) us anything, it’s that people will stand and salute pretty much any goddamn fool thing you can convince them to salute. > > So the more important question is, do people have the freedom not to salute? I heard Bomani Jones of ESPN say the other day (although I think he might have been quoting someone else) that standing for the anthem is actually making an affirmative statement. If you don’t stand up, that’s actually more neutral, rather than being a statement. Now in the opinion of today’s America, that’s completely backward. The default is to stand up; to not do that is some kind of commie-pinko-SJW-soldierhating treason. (Actually I refuse to stand up for “God Bless America” before ballgames. It’s not the national anthem, dammit, and the main reason is I resent the PA announcer _demanding_ we all rise for that song. Fight the power!) This country is so great that it gives us the freedom to do so many things the way we see fit - don’t stand for the anthem; burn a flag; protest about guns or abortion or Black Lives Matter. And we’re free to do those things, as long as we don’t break the law. And yes, we also have the freedom to speak our opinions if we don’t agree with someone expressing their opinion, and to not purchase products or buy tickets that might enrich persons who have opinions different than us. It’s all part of this great American experiment. You can say you don’t agree with someone expressing their opinion. You can even try to convince them to change their mind. You can’t say they don’t have the right to do it, or that they have to do it in only certain ways. You don’t have to like it. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/38 "2016-08-30T16:39:54Z")
All I know is the next moron to give me shit for not acting like “God Bless America” is the national anthem is taking a header over the upper deck railing. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/39 "2016-08-30T16:46:28Z")
> [@Uncle\_Jocko](#): > > Re-reading the bolded part, yeah, you’re actually wrong here. Like I said, NOBODY NOTICED during the first two games, until the fans and media saw him not standing when he was in uniform this last time. Of course he’s going to respond and explain his position when he’s asked about it. > > Now I would agree if he really thought his action would actually have any effect in improving the situation re: minorities and police, that would mean somebody would have to know that was the reason behind his action. Which means he’d need somebody to notice. Just the fact he didn’t stand up for a song isn’t going to change the rules of engagement for police departments. > > I can’t speak for Kaepernick, but it seems to me his action in not standing is a personal decision, that he can’t do that to respect the symbol of a country that he feels is failing in a specific aspect. I believe he would be doing it whether or not anybody noticed or asked him about it. But I don’t know him … I could be wrong. I’ll take your word for it. My point stands. Bob’s point is idiotic. Kaepernick is making it every one’s business. His protest wouldn’t be very effective otherwise. If he wanted to be left alone with his choice he would have said so. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/40 "2016-08-30T16:48:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You aren’t asking me but I think so. Just like they have the freedom to fly the flag they wish. Or burn it. The freedom to associate with whom they wish. Or not be forced to. The freedom to go to whatever place of worship they wish. Even wear hair long and full of bugs. What’s the point of forced conformity? I can give you plenty of examples of the good in forced conformity. Vaccination. Universal education. Universal access to health. A comprehensive social net. Laws preventing discrimination based on race, religion, gender and sexual expression. Protection of minors. The list goes on and on. There is plenty of good that comes from certain requirements to conformity in society. Jingoism isn’t one of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=3)