# Flag/pledge/anthem whiners **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475 "2016-08-30T12:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/61 "2016-08-30T17:45:16Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > Where did I say one “has to” applaud his decision? _I_ applaud his decision. That doesn’t mean anyone else has to. Nope. I’m just disagreeing with you applauding him. I think you’re wrong to want to applaud every exercise of a right. Some decisions to exercise a right are wrong. (Heh.) > [@Leo Krupe](#): > > I fully agree with what you’re saying. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, of course. I never said anyone has to support his decision. > > Although I disagree that, at least in the US, exercising a right _does_ make you a “true American”. Because you have that right, and choose to exercise it (or choose not to–that’s what democratic freedoms are all about). I don’t find Illinois Nazis, Hobby Lobby, or a person refusing to rent a small room to a homosexual to be “True Americans”. Sure, they’re exercising a right, but that, in and of itself, doesn’t mean they’re true americans or that we should applaud their decision. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/62 "2016-08-30T17:47:03Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > If Colin Kaepernick wasn’t personally involved in his own protest, who was? It looked like him. It sounded like him. He admits it was him. > > Who do you believe is responsible for what’s-his-names choice to protest? A person can be part of a movement. They are personally involved. That does not make it a “personal protest,” such as asking for more money or complaining about the color of the uniforms. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/63 "2016-08-30T17:48:29Z")
[It’s like déjà vu all over again.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abdul-Rauf#National_anthem_controversy) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/64 "2016-08-30T17:49:53Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Do people still have the freedom to discuss such a non-salute, or must they be shouted down in the name of freedom? Who’s shouting you down, **hinge of door**? I can read your posts just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/65 "2016-08-30T17:54:16Z")
Disagreeing with a loud mouth right winger has always been interpreted as “shouting them down” or violating their free speech. Because they don’t understand the entire concept. They think “Freedom of Speech” means they can say anything they want and NO ONE can say anything about it. Kinda sociopathic in their inability to understand that the same rules apply to the person calling them out on their shit. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/66 "2016-08-30T17:59:13Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I assume you also oppose all of the flag-waving displays of support for the military at football games, then? Not long ago, flag-waving and support for the military were not partisan political issues. This is what the progressive left has wrought. Yesterday I read about flags being disallowed at a high school football game. :roll eyes: A quote that I heard came from Michael savage and assumed to be hyperbolic doesn’t seem to be much of an exaggeration anymore: “Liberalism is a mental disease.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/67 "2016-08-30T18:06:31Z")
My theory; he knew that his contract was under review and this was an attempt to keep them from letting him go. (If they fire me now, it looks like they’re stomping on my First Amendment rights.) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/68 "2016-08-30T18:16:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not long ago, flag-waving and support for the military were not partisan political issues. This is what the progressive left has wrought. Yesterday I read about flags being disallowed at a high school football game. :roll eyes: > > A quote that I heard came from Michael savage and assumed to be hyperbolic doesn’t seem to be much of an exaggeration anymore: “Liberalism is a mental disease.” I see the opposite- entirely too much uniform-worship. We’re all supposed to flutter our eyelashes like Scarlett O’Hara and gasp "oooh, the _troops_ whenever we see a uniform. As far as the flags go, I think the banning was sound. They were to be used to taunt the opposing team with a high Hispanic makeup. This would be as if to say “we’re Americans and you aren’t, neener neener neener!” Lastly, Michael Savage as a Moron Third Class who may never get promoted to Second Class. He’s a racist pile of shit who whines about borders, language, and culture as if he’s discovered gravity. I’m still amazed by and still don’t quite believe this pinhead got a Ph.D. from Cal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/69 "2016-08-30T18:21:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > As far as the flags go, I think the banning was sound. They were to be used to taunt the opposing team with a high Hispanic makeup. This would be as if to say “we’re Americans and you aren’t, neener neener neener!” But they reversed that banning, right? ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/70 "2016-08-30T18:22:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fucking right wingers can’t fucking stop their fucking whining. They fucking love freedom so fucking much, except for the freedom to not act the way they do. Last fucking time I fucking checked, you had the fucking freedom to stand or not fucking stand as you saw fit. It’s nobody else’s fucking business. Know what, assholes? Some people don’t want to be your fucking puppets, they want to live their own fucking lives the way they want to. They may not look like you, they may not pray like you, they may not get a boner every time they see the flag, they may not feel like standing or putting their hands on their hearts. It’s called freedom, and if right wingers loved freedom as much as they fucking pretend, they’d shut the fuck up about it. Price of Thorazine’s gone up, I see. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/71 "2016-08-30T18:26:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not long ago, flag-waving and support for the military were not partisan political issues. This is what the progressive left has wrought. **Yesterday I read about flags being disallowed at a high school football game.** :roll eyes: > > A quote that I heard came from Michael savage and assumed to be hyperbolic doesn’t seem to be much of an exaggeration anymore: “Liberalism is a mental disease.” Did you actually read it or are you parroting what FoxNews told you to believe? [Principal’s statement.](http://wncn.com/2016/08/29/sc-high-school-bans-american-flags-at-football-game/) Only part of it quoted due to fair use restrictions. read the whole thing before commenting. Or have someone read it to you if you’re unable. > [@](#): > > **Any decision to not allow the American flag to be used in an improper “taunting”, unsportsmanlike manner is first and foremost in the interests of promoting the safety and well-being of all in attendance at school events.** This decision would be made anytime that the American flag, or\*\* any other symbol, sign, cheer, or action on the part of our fans would potentially compromise the safety of all in attendance at a school event.\*\* > > **Just as importantly, using the American flag to display disrespect and unsportsmanlike behavior, is in itself improper and disrespectful to our flag.** Those in attendance at TRHS events from football and basketball to tennis and baseball know that I, along with our student body and community, have the utmost respect for our flag and strive to display the highest levels of patriotism. **The American flag is properly displayed at our sporting stadiums** and our announcers always ask the fans to stand and join in the singing of our national anthem before contests, which was most recently witnessed at last evening’s football game. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/72 "2016-08-30T18:28:11Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But they reversed that banning, right? Correct. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/73 "2016-08-30T18:28:57Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > A person can be part of a movement. They are personally involved. That does not make it a “personal protest,” such as asking for more money or complaining about the color of the uniforms. But you knew that. He’s personally involved with his own protest but he’s not personally involved with his own protest? Why didn’t you say so in the first place? :smack: What’s-his-name is personally protesting something but you seem to object to that action being referred to as a personal protest. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/74 "2016-08-30T18:32:24Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Who’s shouting you down, **hinge of door**? I can read your posts just fine. And yet you didn’t answer the question you chose to quote. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/75 "2016-08-30T18:40:24Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > My theory; he knew that his contract was under review and this was an attempt to keep them from letting him go. (If they fire me now, it looks like they’re stomping on my First Amendment rights.) Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/76 "2016-08-30T18:44:53Z")
Well, I have a unique perspective on this incident, because as a former Jehovah’s Witness, I spent nearly twenty years sitting through anthems and pledges all through school and the few sporting events that I attended. Oddly enough, there was never really any problem with anyone taking offense. A couple of teachers got snippy about not “showing respect for your country”, but they backed off when I said it was for religious reasons. Witnesses will not salute the flag or stand to national anthems because they are part of “Jehovah’s Kingdom”, which is no part of this Earth, and saluting flags and standing to anthems is part of the nationalism that causes wars, and is also a form of idolatry, as they see it. It’s actually an outgrowth of their pacifism that has caused them to be persecuted in other less tolerant nations. I would be, of course, reminded of how these persecuted Witnesses were ready to die for their faith, had I ever questioned sitting through the patriotism. But I never did. I was a good little sitting sheep for quite a while. I did feel a little uncomfortable, being that conspicuous though. Don’t get me wrong. I find the reasoning behind Witnesses sitting through the anthem admirable to a certain extent. It’s good that we are not forced to worship the nation, or the head of state. We need a reminder of that. It’s a noble thing not to be in lockstep with the crowd. But again, I was not in lockstep with the patriotic practice because I was _ **told** _ not to be in lockstep with it. I was in lockstep with Witness beliefs instead, so it’s really a wash, as far as nobility goes. I suppose I was lucky to be going through all this during the Sixties and Seventies, when patriotism was not such a big deal. Really, the United States is far, far more sensitive to this sort of thing now, as this whole Kaepernick thing shows. I can remember during high school, they used to play the national anthem through the intercom speakers in the morning. Everyone was supposed to stand up. One day, the teacher was late, and the anthem started to play. I didn’t stand up… …but then, none of the other kids did either. They weren’t showing any special solidarity with me. They just didn’t have a teacher in the room making them stand up. They just kept talking and waiting for class to start. At the end of the song, the teacher walked in, and yelled at everybody for sitting down through the anthem. I just sat there smiling. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/77 "2016-08-30T18:47:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not long ago, flag-waving and support for the military were not partisan political issues. This is what the progressive left has wrought. Yesterday I read about flags being disallowed at a high school football game. :roll eyes: > > A quote that I heard came from Michael savage and assumed to be hyperbolic doesn’t seem to be much of an exaggeration anymore: “Liberalism is a mental disease.” Come on. The flag and the military are _inherently political_. There are few things more political at their core than the standard of a nation and the army of a nation. If by “this is what the progressive left has wrought” you mean a questioning and challenging of fealty and deference to Big Government (as symbolized by allegiance to the flag and displays of military might), then yes, I’d agree with you there, but if you think that these were not already political issues, you’re deluded. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/78 "2016-08-30T19:00:21Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > How is that relevant? > > I’m not trying to be snarkily dismissive; I’m saying I truly don’t get how it’s relevant. Like, if Kaepernick were standing for the anthems of _those_ countries, then, uh, sure, I guess – but it’s entirely possible that, if he were in Europe, he’d sit out anthems over there; and, being here, he (a) is only ever asked to stand for the Star-Spangled Banner, and he (b) only ever refuses when asked. The only way to sit for the anthems in Europe, as a player, is to sit cross legged on the grass. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/79 "2016-08-30T19:02:36Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Did you actually read it or are you parroting what FoxNews told you to believe? > [Principal’s statement.](http://wncn.com/2016/08/29/sc-high-school-bans-american-flags-at-football-game/) Only part of it quoted due to fair use restrictions. read the whole thing before commenting. Or have someone read it to you if you’re unable. Yes, I read that crock of bullshit excuse. Thanks for asking. Here’s the thing, waving the American flag should always be allowed in this country. If you don’t like it, too fucking bad, move to a country that where flying some other banner is the norm. That said, while I’m sure that it’s possible to use the flag in an offensive manner, _anything_ can be used in an offensive maker. But it really depends on someone first having a problem with the flag. And like I said, if you’re in the U.S., too fucking bad. No one is keeping anyone here at gunpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/80 "2016-08-30T19:05:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Here’s the thing, waving the American flag should always be allowed in this country. If you don’t like it, too fucking bad, move to a country that where flying some other banner is the norm. That’s hilarious. “Love the flag or get the fuck out.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=5)