# Flag/pledge/anthem whiners **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475 "2016-08-30T12:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/161 "2016-08-31T13:58:49Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Sigh… OK, Dopers just can’t accept a general term and just \*have \*to find exceptions unless the term is defined and refined to account for all possible conflicts and issues that may be construed. Do I really have to nuance the definition of “political” in this case? ☹ Just because you’re used to the political at sports doesn’t make it not political. It’s as if you said, “My god, those horrible people are trying to mention God on our currency.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/162 "2016-08-31T14:11:11Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > All I know is the next moron to give me shit for not acting like “God Bless America” is the national anthem is taking a header over the upper deck railing. So you hate God AND America? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/163 "2016-08-31T14:13:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You mean like playing the national anthem at the begining of every sporting event? 😃 Heck, at baseball and football games a few times each year the players uniforms switch to camo jerseys so they have to participate whether they want to or not. Their only alternative is not to play in those cases. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/164 "2016-08-31T14:47:49Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So you hate God AND America? :eek: Both could stand a lot less dreadful toadying and barefaced flattery. Fantastic. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![TheStake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@TheStake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheStake)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/165 "2016-08-31T15:00:26Z")
As a vet, I personally believe that the symbolism is important. People have died for that flag. They also died so that people have the freedom to disrespect the flag as well. Not standing up for the anthem is a right. I think it is in very poor taste, but it is a right. People died so that we have the right to dishonor the fallen. I think it is a tad sick, but their will always be people who will do something that goes against your “code”. In summary, I think it is allowed, but I think it makes you sort of an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/166 "2016-08-31T15:11:31Z")
Thanks for your service, shipmate. That said, I just wanted to say, as a fellow vet, I do not co-sign @ **TheStake** ’s post. I do not equate not standing for the anthem with “dishonoring the fallen,” I do not think it’s “sick,” and I do not think it makes you an “asshole.” It would be fair to say that we don’t place the same value on symbolism. Or, at least, not that particular symbolism. ---
**Author:** ![TheStake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@TheStake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheStake)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/167 "2016-08-31T15:12:59Z")
Thanks for your service as well! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/168 "2016-08-31T15:23:30Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > Thanks for your service, shipmate. > [@TheStake](#): > > Thanks for your service as well! Get a room, ladies. 😉 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/169 "2016-08-31T15:26:03Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > the uber-PC French have an anthem that talks about racial purity. Where is the SJW/far-left outrage about that? First, you mouth-breathing idiot, your interpretation of the lyrics is (unsurprisingly) simplistic and unsophisticated. Second, given that we’re talking mainly about the United States here, i’m not sure what the fuck the lyrics of the French anthem have to do with anything. To the extent that there has been criticism of the anthem in this thread, it hasn’t been about the lyrics, but about the stupidly outsized amount of reverence some people seem to have for a dumb song and a colored piece of cloth. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I would pay real money, like three or four dollars, to get rid of this stupid tradition. Where’s the Like button? When we go to the baseball, my wife and i nearly always make a point of arriving in our seats after the anthem has finished. On the rare occasions when we’re already seated, we don’t stand. I’ve never had any trouble at a baseball game as a result of this, although i’ve received a few dirty looks in my time. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Sigh… OK, Dopers just can’t accept a general term and just \*have \*to find exceptions unless the term is defined and refined to account for all possible conflicts and issues that may be construed. Do I really have to nuance the definition of “political” in this case? ☹ As others have noted, the fact that it has become commonplace and widely accepted doesn’t mean it’s not political. You seem to be one of those people who define “political” as “things that i happen to disagree with, or think are controversial.” > [@TheStake](#): > > As a vet, I personally believe that the symbolism is important. Personally, i think that actual, concrete values and meaningful actions are important. Standing for a flag or for an anthem is not. It is, very literally, the LEAST a person can do to demonstrate their belief system. The world would probably be a better place if we spent less time saluting flags and singing stupid nationalist songs, and more time actually living the values that those things (are allegedly supposed to) represent. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/170 "2016-08-31T15:35:41Z")
Well, when we can see a lot of people on the right that worship that flag but don’t seem to have Clue #1 about what it stands for… Like Mr. “Citizenship is conditional” on the news today. No, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/171 "2016-08-31T15:44:13Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > What amuses me is that many of those who are upset about his actions are the ones who will hoot and holler and applaud when the National Anthem is performed. But that’s just as much a violation of etiquette as not standing. I feel that way about Old Glory flying on the front yard flag poles around where I live. They love the symbol enough to have it displayed prominently, they just can’t be bothered to take it down at night or shine a light on it or replace it when it gets tattered. The church a block from me has the American flag flying beneath The Christian Flag on the same flag pole! What the fuck is that about? American flag bumper stickers as well. It’s not about the country, I think, displaying the flag is about a conservative political identity. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/172 "2016-08-31T15:50:45Z")
No offense to Vets, but no one has ever died for the flag, unless they were burned up trying to put one out. Or maybe strangled after being unfortunately tangled up in one in a flag raising mishap. Honorable people have indeed died fighting for what the flag represents. The country. (And I thank them for their service and sacrifice.) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/173 "2016-08-31T15:55:03Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I feel that way about Old Glory flying on the front yard flag poles around where I live. They love the symbol enough to have it displayed prominently, they just can’t be bothered to take it down at night or shine a light on it or replace it when it gets tattered. \*\*The church a block from me has the American flag flying beneath The Christian Flag on the same flag pole! What the fuck is that about? \*\* > > American flag bumper stickers as well. It’s not about the country, I think, displaying the flag is about a conservative political identity. [Looks like it’s this.](http://www.christianpost.com/news/god-first-then-country-141405/) > [@](#): > > Have you heard about the Baptist pastors in Shelby, North Carolina, who have raised the Christian flag above the American flag at their local churches? The pastors explain that our ultimate allegiance is to God, not government or country. One of the churches has launched a website ([GodBeforeGovernment.org](http://GodBeforeGovernment.org)). > > The pastors have a very valid point. Flags are powerful emotive symbols, as signified by the recent controversy over the Confederate battle flag. The pastors’ actions remind Christians that our ultimate allegiance belongs to God. As Jesus said, “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God things which be God’s” (Luke 20:25). In other words, ultimate loyalty must belong to God. > > This ultimate allegiance is actually acknowledged in our Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” i didn’t know [Christians had a flag.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Flag) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/174 "2016-08-31T15:59:57Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Looks like it’s this.](http://www.christianpost.com/news/god-first-then-country-141405/) > i didn’t know [Christians had a flag.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Flag) Yup, that’s the one. It’s messed up. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/175 "2016-08-31T16:10:14Z")
If one wanted to be troublesome, one could fly the flag of another religion (Church of Satan, perhaps, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) above the US flag, just to see what these folks say or do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/176 "2016-08-31T16:59:58Z")
I just realized: this is going to come up at the Clinton/Trump debate, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/177 "2016-08-31T17:25:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Just because you’re used to the political at sports doesn’t make it not political. > > It’s as if you said, “My god, those horrible people are trying to mention God on our currency.” Not quite sure how you came to that conclusion, but I think you’re painting with way too broad a brush and assigning a label on me just because I used a keyword that rubbed you the wrong way. How about if I say “People generally don’t want political controversy in sports events?” Is that more clear? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/178 "2016-08-31T17:27:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Looks like it’s this.](http://www.christianpost.com/news/god-first-then-country-141405/) I wonder if they realize that is what radical Islamic terrorists believe. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/179 "2016-08-31T17:36:03Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > i didn’t know [Christians had a flag.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Flag) Holy crap, neither did I. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475/180 "2016-08-31T19:38:17Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > How about if I say “People generally don’t want political controversy in sports events?” Is that more clear? It is indeed clear. But what it effectively means is, “People are happy to have political statements as a part of sports events, but only the political statements they happen to agree with.” Having the anthem as part of sporting events is, itself, a political act. To be honest, i think that insisting on playing the anthem before every single fucking game of a meaningless sporting competition actually helps to rob the anthem of any significance it might once have had. It’s become nothing but another routine, another box to check. I have, in my years watching sports in America, seen literally thousands of people chatting or checking their phones or whatever during the anthem. And i’ll bet some of those people would never dream of sitting down during the anthem, and are probably also angry at Colin Kaepernick for his display of “disrespect.” At baseball games in Baltimore, as the anthem reaches its climax, everyone in the stadium yells out “O” as an acknowledgement of the Orioles’ nickname. Some people even did it at the Olympics, causing Michael Phelps to laugh during his ceremony. And yet no-one writes editorial comments complaining about how Baltimore fans are disrespecting the anthem. It’s also hilarious the way that some critics argue that Kaepernick is disrespecting the military. He hasn’t said a single word about the military. The military, as far as i know, does not own the anthem, and the anthem was not designed as a celebration of, or a tribute to, the United States military. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-pledge-anthem-whiners/764475.md?page=10)