# Flag protests in Northern Ireland.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 8, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437 "2012-12-08T18:37:20Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/1 "2012-12-08T18:37:20Z")
Don’t know if this has made the news beyond these islands.
On Monday Belfast city councillors voted for the restriction of flying the union jack on City Hall to certain designated days. These designated days are the days it flies on other public buildings in Northern Ireland. Hitherto it flew every day over the building. This decision was a compromise, brokered by the non-sectarian [Alliance Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_Party_of_Northern_Ireland), between the nationalist councillors desire for no union jack at all and unionist councillors wanting the status quo maintained.
Since the motion was passed Alliance Party councillors have been threatened, their homes targeted, and there have been various protest rallies by unionists/loyalists unhappy with the vote. It has spilled out into some violence, although thankfully nobody has been killed. A few police have been injured however. The protests and violence have coincided with a visit to Belfast of Hillary Clinton. The protests continue and have likely interrupted Christmas trade for Belfast stores. An Irish tricolour was burned at today’s protests by some masked youths.
So are flags and other such ethno-political that important? Is this something, if you were an NI unionist, that would make you go out and protest? Are there similar flag shenanigans in other countries? Do the protesters have a point?
Some relevant links:
> **[US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemns recent NI violence](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20625735)**
>
> US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemns this week's violence in Northern Ireland during a visit to Belfast.
> **[Police officer injured in Belfast union flag rally](https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1208/357429-belfast-union-flag/)**
>
> A police officer is being treated for injuries he sustained during clashes with loyalists in east Belfast.
[http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/alliance-party-offices-set-on-fire-in-belfast-flag-row-16246877.html](http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/alliance-party-offices-set-on-fire-in-belfast-flag-row-16246877.html)
[http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/viewpoint/belfast-flag-violence-today-we-all-vote-for-the-alliance-party-16247565.html](http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/viewpoint/belfast-flag-violence-today-we-all-vote-for-the-alliance-party-16247565.html)
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### Author:  [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/2 "2012-12-08T19:08:40Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#):
>
> So are flags and other such ethno-political that important? Is this something, if you were an NI unionist, that would make you go out and protest? Are there similar flag shenanigans in other countries? Do the protesters have a point?
I think the protests DO have a kernel of truth within them. What was wrong with the existing flag? I’d definitely be suspicious that this is part of a chipping-away process where the endgame is to clear all visible traces of the unionist community.
There are similar flag shenanigans [in Quebec](http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/12/04/canadian-flag-quebec-assembly_n_2239099.html), but with less overt protest since there is simply not enough left of an opposing community left in Quebec to offer resistance.
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### Author:  [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/3 "2012-12-09T09:43:06Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#):
>
> There are similar flag shenanigans [in Quebec](http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/12/04/canadian-flag-quebec-assembly_n_2239099.html), but with less overt protest since there is simply not enough left of an opposing community left in Quebec to offer resistance.
I don’t believe the situations are really analogous. In Quebec the majority community of the province is seeking to remove the flag of the federal state, which the minority community identifies with. Here, the flag-defenders are from the majority community. And whatever about their symbols, it’s pretty clear at this point that _they’re_ not going anywhere.
And that’s what makes this protest so ridiculous. There’s less chance of Irish reunification now than at any time in the past half-century, probably; the real question now is how nationalists are to be accommodated within the British state. Loyalist reactions like this, to even the slightest compromise, only tell them that they won’t be. Which will make dissident republicans the main beneficiaries of these events.
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### Author:  [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/4 "2012-12-09T10:30:52Z")
Oh, and here’s another link that may be of use:
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqvGIhWu1aE)
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### Author:  [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/5 "2012-12-09T15:26:19Z")
> [@ruadh](#):
>
> I don’t believe the situations are really analogous. In Quebec the majority community of the province is seeking to remove the flag of the federal state, which the minority community identifies with. Here, the flag-defenders are from the majority community. And whatever about their symbols, it’s pretty clear at this point that _they’re_ not going anywhere.
True, but in both cases you have an established flag which is getting targeted. And in both cases, the aggrieved communities represent an anti-British, historically Catholic faction within the overall country (or federation)
> [@ruadh](#):
>
> And that’s what makes this protest so ridiculous. There’s less chance of Irish reunification now than at any time in the past half-century, probably; the real question now is how nationalists are to be accommodated within the British state. Loyalist reactions like this, to even the slightest compromise, only tell them that they won’t be. Which will make dissident republicans the main beneficiaries of these events.
I’m rather skeptical that overall loyalist reactions are being portrayed in a fair and nuanced way. First, it’s no minor thing to tell ANY group of people to take their flag down, so it strikes me as a bit odd to treat it as an insignificant concession.
Second, I’m not aware that unionists/loyalists ever receive positive credit for anything anyways, on the contrary it seems to be a sport for their opponents to portray them in the [most dismissive possible way](http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Screen-Shot-2012-10-01-at-10.52.16.jpg).
On that note, I sort of agree with [this article](http://www.lookleftonline.org/2012/02/ready-for-peace/):
> [@](#):
>
> The positive contribution from Loyalists tends to be cut out and then we get the … bald heads and muscles and that’s what the media want to portray … There has been a lot of revisionism that’s gone on and Loyalists have been written out of the story. I find myself as someone who was involved very heavily in the whole political process and I’ve been written out of it.
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### Author:  [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/6 "2012-12-09T16:06:06Z")
LC Strawhouse be clear though that they weren’t told to _remove_ their flag, only that the flag would be flown in line with other government buildings. So the union jack will still be seen over City Hall, just not perpetually.
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### Author:  [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/7 "2012-12-09T16:53:08Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#):
>
> LC Strawhouse be clear though that they weren’t told to _remove_ their flag, only that the flag would be flown in line with other government buildings. So the union jack will still be seen over City Hall, just not perpetually.
Thanks for the clarification. However, I understand the flag has always flown perpetually over Belfast City Hall so this is a change in routine and a major symbolic gesture. In that context, I’d still see it a “cheeky” measure that has no functional purpose other than a feather-in-the-cap for nationalists. If the roles were reversed, this would be akin to unionists banning the sale of Wolfe Tones CDs except on Sundays.
I’d take it more seriously if they reduced the flag display AND made meaningful concessions to loyalists at the same time, e.g., allowed a few more Orange parades or something.
PS - I’d always capitalized “Union Jack”, is that not how it’s done? 😉
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### Author:  [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/8 "2012-12-09T17:06:04Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#):
>
> Thanks for the clarification. However, I understand the flag has always flown perpetually over Belfast City Hall so this is a change in routine and a major symbolic gesture. In that context, I’d still see it a “cheeky” measure that has no functional purpose other than a feather-in-the-cap for nationalists. If the roles were reversed, this would be akin to unionists banning the sale of Wolfe Tones CDs except on Sundays.
And if unionists were in the majority on the city council they could vote for stuff like restrictions on the sale of Wolfe Tone CDs, although I sincerely doubt restricting sales of an item are in the council’s purview. It’s democracy in action but apparently democracy isn’t good enough for some people.
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### Author:  [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/9 "2012-12-09T17:37:40Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#):
>
> And if unionists were in the majority on the city council they could vote for stuff like restrictions on the sale of Wolfe Tone CDs, although I sincerely doubt restricting sales of an item are in the council’s purview. It’s democracy in action but apparently democracy isn’t good enough for some people.
Fair enough, point taken, but I personally expect my city council to do things like maintain the streets and protect waterways, not get involved in symbolic short-term point-scoring that creates enemies. Using democracy in this way is a two-edged sword because one can never truly predict what kind of demographic twists and turns might happen in the future.
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### Author:  [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/10 "2012-12-09T18:15:37Z")
An, you might want to let people know who the “Unionists” are.
The word means something vastly different in the US and this is a predominantly American board.
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### Author:  [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/11 "2012-12-09T18:24:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#):
>
> An, you might want to let people know who the “Unionists” are.
>
> The word means something vastly different in the US and this is a predominantly American board.
Fair point.
> [@](#):
>
> Unionism in Ireland is an ideology which favours the continuation of some form of political union between the islands of Ireland and Great Britain. Since the separation of the Irish Free State from the United Kingdom as a Dominion and its subsequent emergence as an independent state, unionism in Ireland has focused primarily on maintaining and preserving the place of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom.
From: [Unionism in Ireland - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionism_in_Ireland)
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### Author:  [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/12 "2012-12-09T18:44:30Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#):
>
> Fair enough, point taken, but I personally expect my city council to do things like maintain the streets and protect waterways, not get involved in symbolic short-term point-scoring that creates enemies. Using democracy in this way is a two-edged sword because one can never truly predict what kind of demographic twists and turns might happen in the future.
Oh I agree with you, the amount of bolloxology in terms of ultimately meaningless point scoring in NI politics is awful. As regards demographics though, all indicators short and longer term point to Belfast becoming a solid majority nationalist city in the near future.
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### Author:  [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/13 "2012-12-09T20:33:24Z")
Not nearly as serious as in NI. Shenanigans\< which implies mild mischief, seems to be a good word to describe some of the stuff in America.
There have been various protests in the US and around the world where US flags have been burned. In response, legislative actions to outlaw flag burning have been undertaken. Generally they’ve been shot down as a restriction on political speech.
> **[Flag Desecration Amendment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Desecration_Amendment)**
>
> The Flag Desecration Amendment (often referred to as the Flag-Burning Amendment) is a proposed addition to the Constitution of the United States that would allow the U.S. Congress to prohibit by statute and provide punishment for the physical "desecration" of the flag of the United States. The concept of flag desecration continues to provoke a heated debate over protecting a national symbol, preserving free speech, and upholding the liberty said to be represented by that national symbol. While...
A number of Southern states still use the stars and bars (Confederate flag) as at least a part of their state flags. Over the years various attempts have been made to move away from the racist slave holding implications of the confederate flag. Mostly, these have been unsuccessful. Many (white) southerners still proudly display their stars and bars.
> **[Confederate Flag Controversy History](https://www.infoplease.com/history/us/confederate-flag-controversy-history)**
>
> by Borgna Brunner The "Southern Cross" The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation.
> **[Confederate flag at center of controversy, again](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/confederate-flag-at-center-of-controversy-again/2011/09/27/gIQA3T891K_blog.html)**
>
> A Confederate flag flying in a historically black neighborhood of South Carolina is angering neighbors.
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### Author:  [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)
#### Post date: [December 10, 2012, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/14 "2012-12-10T09:56:51Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#):
>
> True, but in both cases you have an established flag which is getting targeted. And in both cases, the aggrieved communities represent an anti-British, historically Catholic faction within the overall country (or federation)
And there the similarities end. The differences are much more significant.
> [@](#):
>
> Second, I’m not aware that unionists/loyalists ever receive positive credit for anything anyways, on the contrary it seems to be a sport for their opponents to portray them in the [most dismissive possible way](http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Screen-Shot-2012-10-01-at-10.52.16.jpg).
You might have picked a better picture to illustrate your point. I think you’ll find it difficult to persuade anyone that unionists are being unfairly portrayed for pissing on a Catholic Church their march passed by.
> [@](#):
>
> I understand the flag has always flown perpetually over Belfast City Hall so this is a change in routine and a major symbolic gesture. In that context, I’d still see it a “cheeky” measure that has no functional purpose other than a feather-in-the-cap for nationalists. If the roles were reversed, this would be akin to unionists banning the sale of Wolfe Tones CDs except on Sundays.
Another ridiculous analogy. City Hall is a public building, the seat of local government and a major symbol of the city. It is not a privately-owned business with its own clientele who can always take their money elsewhere. If you were talking about sales of Wolfe Tone CDs from the City Hall shop you might have a point.
> [@](#):
>
> I’d take it more seriously if they reduced the flag display AND made meaningful concessions to loyalists at the same time, e.g., allowed a few more Orange parades or something.
A few more? There are already hundreds of Orange Parades in the North every year. The problem is \*where \*they march, not that they march at all.
As for the flag move being a “major symbolic gesture”, the problem is that _every_ concession to nationalism seems to be seen by loyalists as a major symbolic gesture. It’s that “no surrender” mentality again. Loyalism has real trouble accepting that this is a peace process, it’s an attempt to resolve a conflict which took thousands of lives and where emotion still runs very deep, and both sides have to accept compromises. Republicans certainly have; look at McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen, which is about as major a symbolic gesture as symbolic gestures go. Bringing City Hall in line with other public buildings, which fly the flag only on certain days per year, is hardly in the same league. Loyalists get little sympathy because they don’t know how to choose their battles - they just turn everything into a sign of the impending unionist apocalypse.
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### Author:  [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)
#### Post date: [December 10, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/15 "2012-12-10T23:36:15Z")
> [@ruadh](#):
>
> You might have picked a better picture to illustrate your point. I think you’ll find it difficult to persuade anyone that unionists are being unfairly portrayed for pissing on a Catholic Church their march passed by.
I’m sure they could have found a few more representative photos to depict a day-long event of 30,000 people. The photos were carefully chosen for maximum comic/slanderous effect (typical.)
> [@](#):
>
> Another ridiculous analogy. City Hall is a public building, the seat of local government and a major symbol of the city. It is not a privately-owned business with its own clientele who can always take their money elsewhere. If you were talking about sales of Wolfe Tone CDs from the City Hall shop you might have a point.
I was trying to say that it was a city ordinance that was simply designed to give the finger to a specific community. If they really wanted to get rid of it, why not do it the proper way by having a dialogue beforehand and offering a concession or two of their own (it doesn’t have to be about Orange parades, that was just an example)
> [@](#):
>
> As for the flag move being a “major symbolic gesture”, the problem is that _every_ concession to nationalism seems to be seen by loyalists as a major symbolic gesture. It’s that “no surrender” mentality again.
In what place on earth would taking the flag off the central place of government NOT be considered a major symbolic gesture? We’re not talking about painting a kerb. And it’s not as if they were flying a UVF flag or something. I would like to ask what was wrong with the flag.
> [@](#):
>
> Loyalism has real trouble accepting that this is a peace process, it’s an attempt to resolve a conflict which took thousands of lives and where emotion still runs very deep, and both sides have to accept compromises. Republicans certainly have; look at McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen, which is about as major a symbolic gesture as symbolic gestures go. Bringing City Hall in line with other public buildings, which fly the flag only on certain days per year, is hardly in the same league. Loyalists get little sympathy because they don’t know how to choose their battles - they just turn everything into a sign of the impending unionist apocalypse.
They didn’t start this particular fight, and are you saying that loyalists have done nothing positive or respectful? That reminds me of the article I linked above about loyalist contributions being written out of history.
> [@An\_Gadai](#):
>
> As regards demographics though, all indicators short and longer term point to Belfast becoming a solid majority nationalist city in the near future.
Time will tell; I’ll just point out that nationalism is not an inherited trait, and I hear that some of the cool kids like Rory McIlroy are identifying themselves in unexpected ways, no matter which community they come from. 😉
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### Author:  [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/16 "2012-12-11T00:07:42Z")
> [@ruadh](#):
>
> Republicans certainly have; look at McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen, which is about as major a symbolic gesture as symbolic gestures go.
I’ll add one other thing, which is that the Republican sacrifice of shaking hands with the Queen is utterly overwhelmed by the Unionist sacrifice to accept this man within NI’s government.
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### Author:  [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/17 "2012-12-11T00:08:42Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#):
>
> Time will tell; I’ll just point out that nationalism is not an inherited trait, and I hear that some of the cool kids like Rory McIlroy are identifying themselves in unexpected ways, no matter which community they come from. 😉
Well to a large extent your culture\* is\* inherited, and its nationalist culture that’s becoming the majority in the city. I’ve no doubt there are some Catholics who vote unionist and Protestants who vote for nationalist/republican parties but up until now they’ve been a minority in either community. It’s likely a positive thing but it’s not a game changer as regards the demographics. IIRC McIlroy had an atypical upbringing, went to a mixed school, most of his peers were from the other community etc.
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### Author:  [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/18 "2012-12-11T00:11:55Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#):
>
> A number of Southern states still use the stars and bars (Confederate flag) as at least a part of their state flags. Over the years various attempts have been made to move away from the racist slave holding implications of the confederate flag. Mostly, these have been unsuccessful. Many (white) southerners still proudly display their stars and bars.
>
> [http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html](http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html)
>
> [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/confederate-flag-at-center-of-controversy-again/2011/09/27/gIQA3T891K\_blog.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/confederate-flag-at-center-of-controversy-again/2011/09/27/gIQA3T891K_blog.html)
[Stars and bars](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#First_national_flag_.28the_Stars_and_Bars.29) refers to the first flag of the Confederacy which I don’t think is all that common nowadays is it?
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### Author:  [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/19 "2012-12-11T00:13:19Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#):
>
> I’m sure they could have found a few more representative photos to depict a day-long event of 30,000 people. The photos were carefully chosen for maximum comic/slanderous effect (typical.)
In fairness there were dozens of generic photos of the marches that day but of course a newspaper is going to highlight the troublemakers, it sells papers after all.
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### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flag-protests-in-northern-ireland/643437/20 "2012-12-11T00:29:35Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#):
>
> [Stars and bars](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#First_national_flag_.28the_Stars_and_Bars.29) refers to the first flag of the Confederacy which I don’t think is all that common nowadays is it?
Yes. The only people I know of who fly that one are those that want to fly a Confederate flag but suspect that they’ll be misinterpreted or harassed for using the one everyone knows (actually the Second Navy Jack).
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