# Flags at half-staff for child-molestation enabler? I don't get it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417 "2012-01-23T18:29:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/21 "2012-01-24T21:23:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Quick quiz: How many of the dozens of Nobel Prize winners that came from Pennsylvania were given the same honor when they died? Well, MLK Jr. went to Crozer Seminary in Pennsylvania, and also took some classes at UPenn. So he was academically affiliated with PA - does that count? ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/22 "2012-01-24T21:31:13Z")
Hell, JoePa barely moves the needle on “least deserving people to get this honor.” How about in the 70’s when Indiana’s governor flew flags at half-staff for William Calley, architect of the My Lai massacre…and Lt. Calley wasn’t even DEAD! ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/23 "2012-01-24T21:40:53Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If my post could somehow be construed so as to imply that all people of integrity would be honored in this fashion, I must apologize. > > On the other hand, if you think that what Joe Paterno meant to the state of Pennsylvania was that he won a lot of football games, you are not in a position to comment intelligently on how the state mourns his passing. Okay, tell us then what else he meant to the state of Pennsylvania. I’m a life long PA resident, and have never been a sports fan, and the man means little to me. He means something to sports fans, but as far as I can see it doesn’t go very far beyond that. As someone who isn’t blinded by love of him as a football coach, I have difficulty seeing how people so cavalierly dismiss his actions (lack of actions really) regarding Sandusky. Yes, he went to the campus police. When they didn’t do anything he should have pursued it further. Ask yourself this: if it had been one of his own children, would he have stopped pursuing it when he did? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/24 "2012-01-24T22:15:01Z")
You’d think a “lifetime of integrity” would have caused him to be one of the _first_ to expose that scandal. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/25 "2012-01-24T22:23:05Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Saying that he was an enabler or that he turned a blind eye is a debatable characterization. It is inarguable to say that he did not do enough. So, what is the calculus for evaluating a lifetime of integrity with an instance of horribly insufficient action? 3/4 mast? Odd state, even state? other? ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/26 "2012-01-24T23:19:26Z")
[QUOTE=davidm] Ask yourself this: if it had been one of his own children, would he have stopped pursuing it when he did? [/QUOTE] Well if it was his own kid, he would have known who the victim was. Which is a rather salient point, as Paterno didn’t know the victim’s name and police are usually reluctant to pursue cases of abuse where the victim is unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/27 "2012-01-24T23:27:36Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Paterno didn’t know the victim’s name and police are usually reluctant to pursue cases of abuse where the victim is unknown. Cite please? Paterno knew the name of an eyewitness and the name of the alleged perp, so it wouldn’t have been that hard to figure it out if the police had been interested. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/28 "2012-01-24T23:32:00Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Okay, tell us then what else he meant to the state of Pennsylvania. The effects of the growth of the Penn State football program from '65 to today under Paterno on the growth of Penn State University cannot be reasonably discounted. In a lot of ways, Paterno put PSU on the map as an institution of higher education (certainly he doesn’t deserve the whole credit (Milton Eisenhower was a big mover too), but his mark is there), and as has been noted upthread it’s one of the rare breed of universities where athletic department dollars fund academics rather than the other way around. Now, if you don’t give a shit about PSU that’s fine, but it’s an important institution in and to PA. – All that said, the man at the very least handled the Sandusky incident incompetently, and at worst corruptly. As I said upthread, I don’t think there is at present a reasonable way that can be accurately weighed against the benefits he accrued to Penn State and the students therein. It’s STILL somewhat hard to believe in the purported chain of events, and I almost want to call for an examination of his historical dealings to see if his displays of integrity were a lifelong facade. I suspect the sad truth is that he let this one thing go as an old-boy’s-club thing, and that’s a goddamn failure on his part that turns his memory from one of deserved appreciation to something less than that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/29 "2012-01-24T23:40:44Z")
Anyone know if the same was done for Art Rooney? He’s the only other sports figure in PA I can think of who was as popular (if not more so) than Paterno. Let me tell you, if they don’t do some some day when Dan Rooney dies, I’ll be pissed. I figure the city here will, but if Corbett’s still in office when Dan does die, I don’t think people here will take it too kindly. Especially considering that he’s from my neck of the woods. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/30 "2012-01-24T23:55:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Cite please? Paterno knew the name of an eyewitness and the name of the alleged perp, so it wouldn’t have been that hard to figure it out if the police had been interested. The [grand jury report](http://www.freep.com/article/20111110/NEWS07/111100541/The-indictment-What-grand-jury-alleges-Penn-State-sex-abuse-case-involving-Jerry-Sandusky) notes that McQueary did not know the name of the victim, police still do not know the name of the victim, and Sandusky ain’t telling. Believe me, the prosecutors absolutely want to know who this victim is, because he’s the only victim to which they’ve got eyewitness evidence to an assault. Now one could state that maybe Paterno or McQueary did know who the victim was, but the grand jury report claims otherwise. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Let me tell you, if they don’t do some some day when Dan Rooney dies, I’ll be pissed. I figure the city here will, but if Corbett’s still in office when Dan does die, I don’t think people here will take it too kindly. Especially considering that he’s from my neck of the woods. The Rooney family is well in with the Democrats. Meanwhile, Paterno was very well known as a Republican fundraiser and campaigner, especially for Bush 41 and 43. Paterno pulled in a _lot_ of money for the Republicans in central PA. Now look at the letter after Corbett’s name, and ask yourself again why Corbett decided to honor Paterno. I’m thinking a lot of this wasn’t about football at all. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/31 "2012-01-25T00:16:05Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > The Rooney family is well in with the Democrats. Meanwhile, Paterno was very well known as a Republican fundraiser and campaigner, especially for Bush 41 and 43. Paterno pulled in a _lot_ of money for the Republicans in central PA. > > Now look at the letter after Corbett’s name, and ask yourself again why Corbett decided to honor Paterno. I’m thinking a lot of this wasn’t about football at all. Actually, despite his support of Obama, Dan Rooney is a registered Republican. (That and he’s also currently the U.S. ambassador to Ireland) ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/32 "2012-01-25T01:06:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Actually, despite his support of Obama, Dan Rooney is a registered Republican. (That and he’s also currently the U.S. ambassador to Ireland) You’re right, I’d forgotten that (about him being a registered Republican, not about the ambassadorship, which is the kind of plum job usually reserved for your very biggest donors). ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/33 "2012-01-25T01:07:32Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > …Now, if you don’t give a shit about PSU that’s fine, but it’s an important institution in and to PA… Of course I give a shit about PSU. I never inferred otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/34 "2012-01-25T13:53:02Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Okay, tell us then what else he meant to the state of Pennsylvania. I’m a life long PA resident, and have never been a sports fan, and the man means little to me. He means something to sports fans, but as far as I can see it doesn’t go very far beyond that. > > As someone who isn’t blinded by love of him as a football coach, I have difficulty seeing how people so cavalierly dismiss his actions (lack of actions really) regarding Sandusky. What did Joe Paterno mean to the state of Pennsylvania? Others have already commented on his positive impact on the development of the University itself. His philanthropy has also been commented on elsewhere. These non-football-game-wins positive aspects of his legacy are undeniable. To me, the things that Joe Paterno represented and exemplified were values I wanted to emulate as a young man, and hope that I have over time. They include: Loyalty and commitment – Paterno had repeated opportunities to leave Penn State to take on positions in professional football. He turned them down, and instead remained committed to one program for his entire professional life, and for the majority of his entire life otherwise. Here at Pitt we’ve technically had 4 coaches in the past year or so. The biggest douchebag, Todd Graham, spoke of commitment and integrity and bolted the program after about 10 months. Paterno’s commitment to the program itself includes his commitment to academics as well. Of course, all programs give lip service to the importance of academic success as well as athletic success, but as much or more than any other program, Penn State adhered to that commitment over the span of Paterno’s tenure. Ethic – Many people talk about preferring a ethic that minimizes individual aggrandizement in favor of team success. Most of the time, this ethic is just as rapidly trodden upon without comment. Penn State remains one of the few, if not the only IA program that does not feature the names of players on the backs of the jerseys. One of the best contrasts of the ethos of Penn State relative to the direction of the rest of the football world was the bowl game at the end of the 1986 season. Miami players arrived at the venue in camouflage pants, showing lots of swagger and enjoying their role as fairly heavy favorites. Penn State arrived in suits and ties with dignity, and won the game in an upset. I always liked their consistency. The uniforms have been the same simple uniform forever. Nothing ostentatious. I was proud of their becoming known as “Linebacker U”, and felt that this fit both with a pride in a strong defense and also in terms of a lack of flash, since the linebacker position is not one of your flash, attention grabbing positions (as opposed to the attention typically given to quarterbacks, receivers, running backs, and so forth). They were not always successful at avoiding the types of off-field behavioral problems that plague college sports, but they maintained a reputation for having a minimum of such problems and for handling them well. On the field, they were always a disciplined team, and were routinely one of the least penalized teams in the country. Joe Paterno’s reputation was as great as it was for much more than the number of wins he accrued. The values and ethics that he espoused and exemplified were in fact a model to aspire to, particularly in the midst of the changes over time in the rest of the sports world, and the wider world as well. If you did honestly value hard work, commitment to team over personal self-promotion, consistency and reliability, Paterno was an actual living embodiment of those values. In fact, this tradition of integrity made the recently-revealed failure to act more proactively and comprehensively regarding Jerry Sandusky all that much more painful. However, it remains very difficult for me to see that failure as overwhelming the example that he set with the rest of his professional and personal life. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/35 "2012-01-25T13:58:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I understand the football fanboy mentality well enough to know that, given a sufficient winning streak, _anything_ will be forgiven…if not swept under the rug entirely. I think you are arguing something else entirely. I’m not terribly interested in arguing the values of football versus the values of other endeavors. You can offensively label me a football fanboy if it helps you with bile-management, but it seems a little off-track for the issue of this thread. (I do have the perspective of having been in high school both a national merit finalist and member of the varsity football team, so perhaps I don’t get so caught up in playing out bitter recriminations about the jocks versus the nerds as others might.) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/36 "2012-01-25T14:00:08Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Yes, he went to the campus police. When they didn’t do anything he should have pursued it further. > > Ask yourself this: if it had been one of his own children, would he have stopped pursuing it when he did? If anyone is arguing counter to these points, it isn’t me. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/37 "2012-01-25T14:16:50Z")
I believe that the only flags that are required to be at half-staff are the state flags. I don’t think Corbett can order the US flag flown at half-staff, but I could be wrong. Some may lower the US flag by custom, however. That said, Paterno had lots (and I do mean LOTS) of fans throughout the state, and if Corbett hadn’t issued the order, many of those people would be wondering why and probably asking for Corbett’s head on a pike. So I don’t think it’s really a political decision to thank Paterno for his lifelong service to the Republican Party as much as it is a decision to throw some meat to the masses. I still don’t get the blind hero-worship for the man. I can understand respecting him for his accomplishments as a coach and his efforts and philanthropy on behalf of the university (and despite what some would believe, I do respect him for that). I just think that had there been less veneration and more scrutiny, Sandusky’s activities might not have happened, or they wouldn’t have affected the university to the same extent. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/38 "2012-01-25T15:20:14Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > as a Catholic, he was a bloody idiot to trust the university What does being a Catholic have anything to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/39 "2012-01-25T15:59:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What does being a Catholic have anything to do with it? I was wondering that too. Maybe s/he meant that, with the relatively recent history of child molestation and enabling by many Catholic priests, Paterno should have been more vocal (since so much was swept under the rug by the Church itself). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417/40 "2012-01-25T18:08:21Z")
He was part of the cover up. Even if it wasn’t an organised effort, he chose to let it slide. He is a piece of shit as far as I’m concerned. I don;t usually speak ill of the dead. But he was a man who put his schools reputation over the safety of children. That simply can not be excused. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-at-half-staff-for-child-molestation-enabler-i-dont-get-it/610417.md?page=3)