# Flags in college classrooms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695 "2003-09-25T05:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/1 "2003-09-25T05:52:11Z")
Over the last few weeks, my college (the University of Central Florida) has been embroiled in a hoo-hah over whether flags should be displayed in classrooms. A conservative campus group wanted the student government to backrolling raising a flag in every classroom; liberal groups, naturally enough, sought to block it, and the Student Government voted against it. The conservative group got funding from a group of dubious sources (a local reactionary radio talk personality, among others) and the flags are now up. Frankly, I’m pretty disgusted by the whole thing, and I’m just glad I’ll have graduated by the time they start requiring that all students recite the pledge of allegiance before each class… This is a major (8th in the nation in total enrollment last year) public university, I remind you, not a elementary/middle/high school. It seems obvious to me, but most Americans simply don’t seem to understand that the more places you try to stick a symbol, the cheaper it becomes. The more you give someone the finger, the less they’ll care each time; the more places you fly your flag, the less people will stop and think when they see one. Anyway, does/did YOUR college have flags in classrooms- and did you even notice or care? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/2 "2003-09-25T06:10:01Z")
I don’t remember there being any at my college, but I probably wouldn’t mind if they were added the say way they were at your school. I mean, they didn’t cost you anything. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/3 "2003-09-25T07:18:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dutchboy208 \* > Anyway, does/did YOUR college have flags in classrooms- and did you even notice or care? Didn’t notice; didn’t care. I’d like to see any college try to get the students to say the pledge, though - most college student would probably just give 'em the finger. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/4 "2003-09-25T09:50:08Z")
College was too long ago to remember whether there were flags in the classrooms. We certainly didn’t have to repeat the POA after elementary school. The nearest thing to it was in high school, when there was a flag raising ceremony every morning accompanied by up to three trumpeters playing “Call To The Colors” (I was one of the three). A bell was rung and wherever you were on campus you were expected to stop and face the direction of the flag pole until a second bell indicated that the ceremony was over. That was in the late fifties, and nobody thought anything of it at the time. I don’t think I’d object to flags in the classrooms even now, but I certainly would not recite the Pledge today, especially with “under God” in it. I think of myself as a patriotic citizen, but I’m not a myrmidon. ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/5 "2003-09-25T13:28:52Z")
My privately-funded, liberal arts university doesn’t have flags in the classrooms. In fact, the U.S. flag is flown only in front of the main building, and it’s in a line with the flags from all the other countries where we have campuses, though it is in the center and taller. Sorry to hear about UCF - though I can’t say I’m surprised they’re requiring this in Florida schools and universities. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/6 "2003-09-25T13:54:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dutchboy208 \* > **I’m just glad I’ll have graduated by the time they start requiring that all students recite the pledge of allegiance before each class…** This is of course, hyperbole. No such requirement exists. Having said that, I agree that the flag thing at UCF is annoying. I was taught that “Flag waving” was a deceptive advertising technique years ago, and conservative groups like ROCK (“Rebuilding Our Conservative Kornerstone” - the group that pushed through the flag placement) didn’t seem to get the message in high school. :rolleyes: The final decision to place the flags rested with UCF President John Hitt of course, and he said in part: > [@](#): > > The request to place donated flags in classrooms at the University of Central Florida presents the University with two clear choices. We can accept the flags and proudly display them in our classrooms as symbols of the political entity that guarantees our freedom of speech, our right to dissent, the rights of political minorities, and our tradition of democracy. Or, we can decline the offer of the flags and by that act cede to one political group our national symbol, likely making it a pawn in ongoing culture wars between groups jockeying for momentary advantage in what is often a low political process. The choice is, for me, simple and compelling. UCF will accept and proudly display the flags in our classrooms. In doing so, we affirm our flag as a powerful unifying symbol. It belongs to all Americans, right, left, center, or undecided. > It must not be co-opted as the symbol of any one group or party. IMHO, he was put in a lose-lose situation with this flag fracas. He was guaranteed to piss off a vocal group one way or the other. - MH ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/7 "2003-09-25T14:01:14Z")
Hmmmm. I can understand doing this right after 9/11 but it seems weird to start it now. OTOH, I can’t get too excited about it one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/8 "2003-09-25T14:09:51Z")
Agreed. They were donated, they don’t hurt anyone, what’s the big deal? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/9 "2003-09-25T14:11:43Z")
I teach at a small private liberal arts college. I have a flag in my office but not in my main lecture hall. My students know me as particularly patriotic individual. Saying the pledge is in my opinion way overboard. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/10 "2003-09-25T14:35:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SanibelMan \* > **My privately-funded, liberal arts university doesn’t have flags in the classrooms. In fact, the U.S. flag is flown only in front of the main building, and it’s in a line with the flags from all the other countries where we have campuses, though it is in the center and taller.** [my stress] Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this a violation of international etiquette? According to the [United States Flag Code](http://www.legion.org/our_flag/of_flag_code.htm): > [@](#): > > (g) When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace. Has this practice changed? > [@](#): > > \*\*Sorry to hear about UCF - though I can’t say I’m surprised they’re requiring this in Florida schools and universities. \*\* They haven’t started this at Florida State University–not yet, anyway. Of the various colleges that I have attended or visited (mainly in Florida and New York), I can’t recall ever seeing the American flag displayed in classrooms. I don’t really care for the idea–it would make me feel like I was back in high school again. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/11 "2003-09-25T14:53:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this a violation of international etiquette? According to the United States Flag Code: I think that applies primarily to military situations, and if it doesn’t its not a punishable law. From the same site: c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above, or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy. **No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof:** This section seems to state that the US Flag is equal to toehrs only at the UN HQ. Provided, That nothing in this section shall make unlawful the continuance of the practice heretofore followed of displaying the flag of the United Nations in a position of superior prominence or honor, and other national flags in positions of equal prominence or honor, with that of the flag of the United States at the headquarters of the United Nations. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/12 "2003-09-25T19:40:44Z")
Hell, my college had _crucifixes_ in the classrooms (Georgetown U.). Guess what? I didn’t care. IMO display of an inoffensive symbol is not offensive, even if I don’t adhere to the beliefs represented by said symbol. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/13 "2003-09-25T20:02:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*I think that applies primarily to military situations, and if it doesn’t its not a punishable law. > > From the same site: > > c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above, or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy. **No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof:** > This section seems to state that the US Flag is equal to toehrs only at the UN HQ. > \*\* I’ve read that clause several times now, but I’m still confused–it seems to contradict the clause that I quoted. It does seem to be saying that, in the United States, the U.S. flag should always be flown above any other national flag, the only exception being the UN headquarters. But the other clause stated that all national flags should be flown at the same level, without any reference to location. Or does that clause refer to all national flags except the US flag? E.g., the French, British, Chinese, etc. flags should all be on the same line, but the American flag needs to be flown at a higher level. Maybe I’ve cleared up my own confusion there, but it does surprise me. For some reason, I’ve always believed that all national flags (including the US) had to be flown at the same level, regardless of location. If there’s any violation of etiquette, it’s just that–an etiquette faux pas, and not anything that could be punished. Although if a couple of traditional adversaries get involved (say, flying India’s flag over Pakistan’s), then things could get ugly. But that would have to be a pretty high-profile faux pas. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/14 "2003-09-25T20:47:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\*Hell, my college had _crucifixes_ in the classrooms (Georgetown U.). Guess what? I didn’t care. > > IMO display of an inoffensive symbol is not offensive, even if I don’t adhere to the beliefs represented by said symbol. > > Sua \*\* If I’m not mistaken, though, isn’t Georgetown a Jesuit school? So even if people WERE offended, well, too bad-you shouldn’t go to a CATHOLIC college then. 😉 I don’t see the point in having them-I mean, aren’t there more important things to spend money on them. Not offensive, but really, what’s the big deal about having them or not? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/15 "2003-09-25T20:58:49Z")
Yep, that’s why there were crucifixes. 'Course, UCF is an American school. So even if people ARE offended, well, too bad - you shouldn’t go to an AMERICAN college then. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/16 "2003-09-25T23:00:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > Agreed. They were donated, they don’t hurt anyone, what’s the big deal? What if I donated huge posters of my head for my local university to hang on their walls. Don’t you think that would be a little odd, if nothing else? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/17 "2003-09-25T23:16:21Z")
To state the obvious, pictures of your head are not the American flag. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/18 "2003-09-26T00:56:22Z")
But if they were donated, and they don’t hurt anyone, what’s the big deal? ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/19 "2003-09-26T02:14:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > **I think that applies primarily to military situations, and if it doesn’t its not a punishable law.** Yes, it’s an expression of etiquette, not law. Nonetheless, it is hugely insulting to elevate one nation’s flag above that of other nations – in ALL situations. I’m terribly surprised to hear of this in practice. The clause you quote relates to other flags and pennants – such as state flags, community flags and pennants. The flags of nations, on the other hand, should be the same size and displayed at the same height. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695/20 "2003-09-26T05:38:31Z")
Now that I’ve read over the flag code a few more times, I stand by my original interpretation–that whenever national flags are displayed _together_, then according to international protocol they must be at the same height. The dispute was over this clause, which **smiling bandit** already cited: > [@](#): > > No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or **in a position of superior prominence or honor to** , or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession The key phrase here is “a position of superior prominence or honor.” This doesn’t necessarily mean _height_. When the US flag is displayed with a row of other national flags, it is normally given the place of honor, which is “the flag’s own right,” that is, the mast on the extreme left from the viewer’s standpoint. The lefthand mast is the place of honor and in the US is reserved for the American flag…but that mast is still the same height as the other masts (and, as **Narrad** points out, the flags themselves should be of equal dimensions). The situation that **SanibelMan** describes is more problematic. If the other flags were US state flags, then it’s perfectly OK (and expected) that the US flag will be flown from a higher mast in the center of the group: > [@](#): > > 7(e)The flag of the United States of America should be at _the center and at the highest point of the group_ when a number of flags of States or localities or pennants of societies are grouped and displayed from staffs.[stress added] However, it’s pretty clear that this applies to displays of the US national flag with US state and/or local flags, not with other national flags. It sounds like the college officials got their flag codes mixed up. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flags-in-college-classrooms/203695.md?page=2)