# Flat earth question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 17, 2001, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902 "2001-02-17T18:35:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2001, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/21 "2001-02-18T18:07:17Z")
There was no one of any importance who believed that the Earth was flat during the Middle Ages. Knowing that the Earth was round and that the sun, planets, and stars were far away was pretty standard at the time. It was approximately the same level of knowledge as the knowledge today that the universe is expanding, having begun in a big bang. Doubtlessly there are many people in the world today who never had time to worry about cosmology, since they have to worry about trivialities like avoiding starvation. Anyone who seriously thought about the issue in the Middle Ages knew that the Earth was round. ---
**Author:** ![pmwgreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pmwgreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pmwgreen)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2001, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/22 "2001-02-18T22:02:52Z")
> [@](#): > > And yes, the Greeks worked it out, with a reasonable approximation of the measurement - but the famous “two wells” experiment strikes me as a pretty sophisticated one for a society that did not have clocks, nor quick means of communication - it was probably a cutting edge experiment, for the technology of the day I thought he used a well due north of the famous one. (Good thing it wasn’t cloudy though.) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2001, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/23 "2001-02-18T22:31:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TV time \* > **But come on people, the bulk of the population at the time believed the earth was flat. Don’t we all pretty much agree with that.** I don’t agree with that. Sailors generally new that the Earth was round from observing ships disappearing over the horizon hull first. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2001, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/24 "2001-02-19T00:33:13Z")
dougie\_monty writes: \> However, according to George Stimpson in Book about a \> Thousand Things (1949), “the knowledge that the Earth was \> spherical was suppressed by the Catholic Church.” This is nonsense. _A Book about a Thousand Things_ isn’t a history book but a book of trivia (according to the descriptions of this book on the Barnes & Noble site), and if this is typical, it’s hopelessly unreliable. Look at any good history of the times and you’ll find that, far from being suppressed, everybody agreed that the Earth was round. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2001, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/25 "2001-02-19T04:14:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\* > [The Flat Earth Society -- Home](http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm) > You can even join!!! > Peace, > mangeorge \*\* This is just a joke site. 🙂 The REAL Flat Earth Society is actually pretty vicious and bizarre in the stuff it writes, which is to be expected when you consider that its members are pretty freakin’ nuts. I don’t even think the real Flat Earth Society has a Web site. There are lots of parody sites out there. An article about the real President of the FES can be found [here.](http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm) ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2001, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/26 "2001-02-19T04:50:26Z")
**RickJay** informs me; > [@](#): > > This is just a joke site. Really? I’ll have to go back and read it again. Guess I shouldn’t skim stuff like this. Thanks. I used to know a guy who’s dad was a flat earther. They didn’t get along at all because the son didn’t believe. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![slortar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@slortar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slortar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2001, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/27 "2001-02-19T18:28:10Z")
_pulls up an easy chair and makes old-man-getting-comfortable-noises_ Well, Timmy, the reason why water keeps pouring off the edge of the world is because once it flows past the atmosphere, it disperses in the hard vacuum of outer space. Gravity pulls the resulting water vapor back into our atmosphere, where it condenses on the lower side of the planet, eventually being carried back up through the bedrock and into the ocean bottoms. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/28 "2001-02-19T19:21:05Z")
Once again, I appreciate all of the information (and for that matter, quasi-information) that you have dispensed. Much will help. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/29 "2001-02-24T22:07:52Z")
> [@](#): > > dougie\_monty, can you give any more information on the RC church suppressing knowledge of the earth being round? I was not aware of that - I thought their concern was that the earth was immovable, hence the dispute over the Copernican theory. I’m sorry, but _Book about a Thousand Things_ is my only specific source for this. What George Stimpson’s sources were, perhaps only he knew–and I’m sure he has long since died. In any case, I will not assume that just because Stimpson’s book was a “trivia book” that it is ipso facto unreliable. Given the clash between the Church and Galileo over such things as the moons of Jupiter–incidentally, they gave us our means to measure the speed of light–I consider the suppression of knowledge that the Earth is a sphere, to be quite plausible. I found another angle on the flat-earth concept in, of all places, _The National League Story_ (1961), by Hall of Fame historian Lee Allen. He mentioned Jim “Deacon” White, a player with the 19th-Century Detroit Wolverines of the NL, who, Allen said, was likely “one of the last people who believe the earth to be flat.” White endured considerable ridicule from his teammates over this but when one of them asked White for evidence to support his position, he did so–however, his reasoning was allegedly in support of the concept that the earth did not move, rather than whether it is flat or spherical. White asked, ‘Wouldn’t a fly ball fly off into space if the earth were moving?’ That convinced the teammate, but White’s reasoning was, of course, quite faulty. ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/30 "2001-02-24T22:19:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > **I agree with you, Attrayant. But how do you explain the Flat Earthers without using the word “dumb”?** I have been authorized by the moderators to say that the Flat Earthers are “ridiculously stupid.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/31 "2001-02-24T23:43:03Z")
doug\_monty, Do some actual research, instead of relying on a book you (I suspect) read years ago and have misremembered. (If Stimpson actually said that the Church suppressed the knowledge of the spherical shape of the Earth, it’s a totallly worthless book.) Let me quote from a couple of books. First, from page 226 in _The Discoverers_ by Daniel J. Boorstin: \> In 1484 Columbus made his first formal presentation of \> the Enterprise of the Indies [sailing west to get to \> India] to King John [John II of Portugal]. . . Despite \> his own doubts, the King was enough persuaded by the fast \> talking Columbus to refer the porject to a committee of \> experts. . . Contrary to vulgar legend, their rejection \> was not based on any disagreement about the shape of the \> earth. Educated Europeans by this time had no doubt \> about the earth’s sphericity. Second, from page 17 of _The European Discovery of America: The Southern Voyages A.D. 1492-1616_ by Samuel Eliot Morison: \> All educated men of western Europe knew that the world \> was a sphere; all observant sailors knew that its surface \> was curved, from seeing ships hull-down. Columbus never \> had to argue the rotundity of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/32 "2001-02-25T00:02:16Z")
> [@](#): > > doug\_monty, > Do some actual research, instead of relying on a book you (I suspect) read years ago and have misremembered. For your information, I have a copy of _Book About a Thousand Things_ myself, and I refer to it often. I noted that, in the foreword to their book _Significa,_ Irving Wallace et al. noted that Robert Ripley’s compilations used questionable sources, and contrasted this with the scholarly, researched material in Stimpson’s books, which also include _Popular Questions Answered_ and _Information Roundup._ I will be on jury duty for another week. Then again, you can e-mail me at [montgomerydou55@hotmail.com](mailto:montgomerydou55@hotmail.com). ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/33 "2001-02-25T06:10:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wendell Wagner \* > **There was no one of any importance who believed that the Earth was flat during the Middle Ages. Knowing that the Earth was round and that the sun, plane** [Python (Monty)] Sir Bedevere: …and that my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana shaped. Kin Arthur: Sir Bedevere, this new learning amazes me. Tell me again how to employ sheep’s bladders to prevent earthquakes[/Python (Monty)] An uncle of mine was a natural devil’s advocate and would ask questions like how I knew the earth was round. It wasn’t until later I realized he was challenging what I knew to encourage critical thinking. Hmm, reminds me I need to return one of his Immanuel Velikovsky books. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/34 "2001-02-26T00:24:16Z")
dougie\_monty writes: \> For your information, I have a copy of Book About a \> Thousand Things myself, and I refer to it often. Could you quote the passage from the book about the Catholic Church suppressing the fact that the Earth was round? I tried to find a copy of that book and it’s not available at the nearest big university library. Apparently the book is rather hard to find. If it’s that unreliable, no wonder it’s out of print. In any case, it’s simply wrong. This isn’t even a matter for Great Debates. It’s clear from everything I’ve read that all educated opinion in Europe in the Middle Ages agreed that the Earth was round. I’ve already given you quotes from two books, but here’s a couple more. In _The Discarded Image: An Introduction to Medieval and Renaissance Literature_ by C. S. Lewis on pages 92 to 121, an outline is given of the medieval conception of the universe. You can see that it wasn’t even in question that the Earth was round. In _Circa 1492: Art in the Age of Exploration_, on pages 83 to 88, there’s a discussion of map and glove making in the century before Columbus. You can see that in the century before the discovery of America European cartographers were already making maps and even globes showing the known world as part of a round Earth. Here’s a bunch of websites on this subject: [http://info.greenwood.com/books/0275959/027595904x.html](http://info.greenwood.com/books/0275959/027595904x.html) [http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html](http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html) [http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html](http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html) [http://www.arn.org/docs/hartwig/mh\_flat.htm](http://www.arn.org/docs/hartwig/mh_flat.htm) [http://www.textbookleague.org/26flat.htm](http://www.textbookleague.org/26flat.htm) [http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm](http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm) Stimpson is simply wrong about this (assuming that you’re quoting him correctly). ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/35 "2001-02-26T02:17:45Z")
“Irving Wallace et al” are hardly renowned as experts on history, or cosmology, so I don’t know that their endorsement of Stimpson counts for much. For an exellent discussion of why we irrationally cling to the belief of the medieval flat earth, see Jeffry B. Russell’s INVENTING THE FLAT EARTH. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/36 "2001-02-26T02:53:56Z")
**Wumpus** say’s, in part; > [@](#): > > we irrationally cling to the belief of the medieval flat earth We? Ya got a mouse in your pocket? 😉 Just kidding, Wumpus. As has pretty well established here, it’s been a good long time since people actually believed that the earth was anything but round. I doubt that even unimportant, uneducated folks believed in the flat earth idea. Often times the less sophisticated allow the “upper crust” to think that they believe such things (ask M. Meade) because it makes their own lives simpler, or otherwise benifits them. Sailors talk to their friends and families too, and they surely noticed the horizon effect, as noted above. BTW; The leaders of the RCC didn’t believe the earth to be immobile, they insisted that the masses believe so. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/37 "2001-02-26T03:54:27Z")
Just to clarify, mangeorge, I was referring to _our_ irrational belief that people in the Middle Ages were flat-earthers. Despite a mountain of evidence, most people today have a deep need to believe that our ancestors were idiots. The book does a nice job of explaining why. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/38 "2001-02-26T04:08:08Z")
Oh. Well then, I guess we agree. That’s exactly the point I was trying to make. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2001, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/39 "2001-02-27T22:07:18Z")
I do not have Stimpson’s book with me–in fact it’s a fluke that I was even at a computer today. (Long story.) I have to admit that the Catholic Church was not specifically mentioned as the suppressor of this evidence, and even Stimpson does not make the claim. If you find a copy of the book, and don’t care to wait, it’s within the last ten pages or so of the body of the book. The next time I get to a computer, however, I will bring the book or a photocopy of this entry. However, though I cannot name the RCC specifically concerning the roundness of the earth, I have documentation–other than what is in this thread, to use as a basis for an accusation that the Roman Catholic Church: 1. Effected an act of inquisition against Galileo for stating that four moons (now known as Io, Ganymede, Europa, and Callisto) orbited the planet Jupiter rather than all heavenly bodies orbiting the earth, as was apparently Ptolemy’s concept. (Contrary to popular belief, Galileo did not mutter, _Eppur si muove"_ (“Still, it moves.”) 2. Supported the notion–accepted as ridiculous today–by the first-century physician Galen that the internal human anatomy matched that of the animals Galen and his students dissected; if actual observations conflicted with Galen, they were discarded: ‘This human was defective.’ (Source: Time-Life Science volume _The Body.)_ Physicians blindly followed this foolish belief until the time of the Renaissance Swiss physician Paracelsus, teaching at the University of Basel, who threw Galen’s textbooks into a bonfire. I am sure I could probably adduce more evidence concerning the Church suppressing science. (This is a loaded remark and I don’t invite anyone to dwell on it.) But I will provide the quote from Stimpson. ---
**Author:** ![Kilt-wearin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kilt-wearin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilt-wearin_man)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2001, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902/40 "2001-02-27T23:11:27Z")
I just wanna point out that religion does not automatically equal ignorance. Asking intelligent questions and wanting to find out how the universe works is not incompatible with religious belief. And the idea that the earth is flat is not endorsed by any church I’ve ever attended… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-question/54902.md?page=3)