# Flat Earth Theory -vs- Round Earth Theory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864 "2013-01-21T03:08:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/21 "2013-01-21T04:44:27Z")
Yeah, I understand your point. But I can’t really help out with your creationists issue, (I’ve tried my hardist). Racialists… I mean, nobody can help that. Climate change deniers? They deny it 99% of the time because they’re creationists. So, I have decided to use my worthless life to make people who think the world is flat realize they’re purposely being ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/22 "2013-01-21T04:45:38Z")
I always thought the Flat Earth Society was some sort of joke organization whose members were just having a lark. But I do have a question along these lines, and this seems like a good place to pose it. I’ve read that people in the past never did really believe the Earth was flat. From shore, they could see ships disappearing over the horizon, with their masts the last to go among other evidence. But then I’ve also read that Columbus had difficulty finding a crew, because everyone was afraid of sailing off the edge of the world. So was it a case of just the lower orders being overly superstitious, or is the Columbus story bogus? ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/23 "2013-01-21T04:47:11Z")
Lower orders being overly superstitious, as it is in modern times. But no, they’re dead freaking serious. It’s not that they’re really good at messing with people, A LOT of the members REALLY believe it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/24 "2013-01-21T04:51:28Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > Yeah, I understand your point. But I can’t really help out with your creationists issue, (I’ve tried my hardist). Racialists… I mean, nobody can help that. Climate change deniers? They deny it 99% of the time because they’re creationists. So, I have decided to use my worthless life to make people who think the world is flat realize they’re purposely being ignorant. Not exactly, the point IMHO is that you have to post for the lurkers that are looking for good information, and there is a lot to be done out there, I’m involved in real world politics too, not just message boards; the idea is not to convince willful ignorant to change, but to make efforts to prevent followers of woo woo to get into positions of power. Other ignorant ideas get traction in many areas, but when Flat Earters get in the news it is only to make fun of them. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/25 "2013-01-21T04:52:41Z")
Alrighty then! Thanks for clearing that up. I suppose I’ll just leave it alone then. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/26 "2013-01-21T04:57:41Z")
I want to put it out there that I am not a Flat Earther. I’m just going to play Devil’s Advocate here to point out the futility of arguing logically with someone who has not used logic to arrive at their conclusions. > [@April\_R](#): > > Um…does [this](http://internationalspacestationpictures.com/images/shuttle_earth_picture.jpg) not prove round earth? To be fair, you can Photoshop damn near anything nowadays. > [@Grumman](#): > > Here’s an easy one: in an era of near-instantaneous communication, we know that part of the Earth is facing towards the sun at the same time that part of the Earth is facing away from the sun, while other parts are facing perpendicular to the sun. They have an amusing theory here: The Sun shines not omnidirectionally, but like a spotlight with a fixed diameter beam. The Sun then hovers above the earth, shining downwards and moving in a circle above the earth, creating the illusion of a spinning sphere. In the Northern Hemisphere summer, it’s a smaller circle, near the North Pole. In the winter, it’s a larger circle, further from the pole. **GIGObuster** ’s link has pictures. > [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Another common way to see the shape of the Earth is a lunar eclipse, when you can see for yourself the planet’s shadow. Have you seen a lunar eclipse? With an unaided eye, it mostly looks like the moon gets redder, then darker, kind of from one side to the other. It’s nothing like the bright, sharp line that you see when in a solar eclipse. How they explain GPS, or how round-the-world yacht races cut closer to the South Pole to shave off miles, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/27 "2013-01-21T04:57:55Z")
It may not settle the matter but [I find this historical incident to be interesting](http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/idl/idl_discovery.htm): [QUOTE=Antonio Pigafetta, one of 18 first to circumnavigate the Earth] “On Wednesday, the ninth of July [1522], we arrived at one of these islands named Santiago, where we immediately sent the boat ashore to obtain provisions. […] And we charged our men in the boat that, when they were ashore, they should ask what day it was. They were answered that to the Portuguese it was Thursday, at which they were much amazed, for to us it was Wednesday, and we knew not how we had fallen into error. For every day I, being always in health, had written down each day without any intermission. But, as we were told since, there had been no mistake, for we had always made our voyage westward and had returned to the same place of departure as the sun, wherefore the long voyage had brought the gain of twenty-four hours, as is clearly seen.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/28 "2013-01-21T04:59:59Z")
Well, show a Flat Earther that, and it was forged. But yeah, that, as well as any other good point brought up in this topic, disproves their ideaology. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/29 "2013-01-21T05:03:01Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I always thought the Flat Earth Society was some sort of joke organization whose members were just having a lark. > > But I do have a question along these lines, and this seems like a good place to pose it. I’ve read that people in the past never did really believe the Earth was flat. From shore, they could see ships disappearing over the horizon, with their masts the last to go among other evidence. But then I’ve also read that Columbus had difficulty finding a crew, because everyone was afraid of sailing off the edge of the world. So was it a case of just the lower orders being overly superstitious, or is the Columbus story bogus? Yes, and the originator of the bogus tale was Washington Irving: > [@](#): > > Washington Irving’s 1828 biography of Columbus popularized the idea that Columbus had difficulty obtaining support for his plan because many Catholic theologians insisted that the Earth was flat.[26] In fact, most educated Westerners had understood that the Earth was spherical at least since the time of Aristotle, who lived in the 4th century BC and whose works were widely studied and revered in Medieval Europe.[27] The sphericity of the Earth is also accounted for in the work of Ptolemy, on which ancient astronomy was largely based. Christian writers whose works clearly reflect the conviction that the Earth is spherical include Saint Bede the Venerable in his Reckoning of Time, written around AD 723. In Columbus’s time, the techniques of celestial navigation, which use the position of the sun and the stars in the sky, together with the understanding that the Earth is a sphere, had long been in use by astronomers and were beginning to be implemented by mariners.[28] > > Where Columbus did differ from the view accepted by scholars in his day was in his estimate of the westward distance from Europe to Asia. Columbus’s ideas in this regard were based on three factors: his low estimate of the size of the Earth, his high estimate of the size of the Eurasian landmass, and his belief that Japan and other inhabited islands lay far to the east of the coast of China. In all three of these issues Columbus was both wrong and at odds with the scholarly consensus of his day. So yeah, If America had been not there, then we would not had heard much about Columbus. Columbus problem was to convince enough people that his numbers were correct. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/30 "2013-01-21T05:14:43Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’ve read that people in the past never did really believe the Earth was flat… But then I’ve also read that Columbus had difficulty finding a crew, because everyone was afraid of sailing off the edge of the world. So was it a case of just the lower orders being overly superstitious, or is the Columbus story bogus? Bogus. The sailors were afraid of the unknown. Unknown oceans; inability to find provisions; etc. Among other scary “omens,” they apparently passed Tenerife while one of its volcanoes was erupting. Note that the seamen were correct in a sense. Columbus had vastly underestimated the distance to the East Indies, and all the seamen would have died at sea, had they not stumbled upon a “new” continent. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/31 "2013-01-21T05:31:53Z")
Whoops, I forgot the link there: > **[Christopher Columbus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus)** > > Christopher Columbus\[b\] (/kəˈlʌmbəs/; between 25 August and 31 October 1451 – 20 May 1506) was an Italian\[c\] explorer and navigator from the Republic of Genoa who completed four Spanish-based voyages across the Atlantic Ocean sponsored by the Catholic Monarchs, opening the way for the widespread European exploration and European colonization of the Americas. His expeditions were the first known European contact with the Caribbean and Central and South America. > The name Christopher Columbus i... ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/32 "2013-01-21T05:36:31Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Have you seen a lunar eclipse? With an unaided eye, it mostly looks like the moon gets redder, then darker, kind of from one side to the other. It’s nothing like the bright, sharp line that you see when in a solar eclipse. I’ve only seen one and it wasn’t total. I could-- or at least I think I did-- see a curved shadow on the moon. Sort of like in this overly dramatic YouTube video around 0:40 or thereabouts. https://www.youtube.com/embed/mhZWIgUUPZ8?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/33 "2013-01-21T08:19:58Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > I’ve only seen one and it wasn’t total. I could-- or at least I think I did-- see a curved shadow on the moon. > > Sort of like in this overly dramatic YouTube video around 0:40 or thereabouts. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhZWIgUUPZ8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhZWIgUUPZ8) Yeah, sorta, kinda. I’ve seen 'em too. But it’s not so undeniably apparent that a Flat-Earther won’t deny it entirely. How exactly they explain lunar eclipses in the first place is less clear. EDIT: Here’s the entry for lunar eclipses in its entirety: “The lunar eclipse is an astronomical phenomenon which has several explanations.” [http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=The\_Phases\_of\_the\_Moon](http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=The_Phases_of_the_Moon) ---
**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/34 "2013-01-21T08:42:23Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Bogus. The sailors were afraid of the unknown. Unknown oceans; inability to find provisions; etc. Among other scary “omens,” they apparently passed Tenerife while one of its volcanoes was erupting. I’m sure there’s some truth in it. I don’t believe in ghosts, but there’s no way You could convince Me to spend a night in a ‘haunted’ house. I don’t want to see that I was wrong, especially if that means I’ll die. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/35 "2013-01-21T08:54:23Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I always thought the Flat Earth Society was some sort of joke organization whose members were just having a lark. I love FAQ question #1 “Is this site a joke?” ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/36 "2013-01-21T09:19:32Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I always thought the Flat Earth Society was some sort of joke organization whose members were just having a lark. > > But I do have a question along these lines, and this seems like a good place to pose it. I’ve read that people in the past never did really believe the Earth was flat. From shore, they could see ships disappearing over the horizon, with their masts the last to go among other evidence. But then I’ve also read that Columbus had difficulty finding a crew, because everyone was afraid of sailing off the edge of the world. So was it a case of just the lower orders being overly superstitious, or is the Columbus story bogus? There _was_ a time when people, even the most advanced thinkers of their culture, believed that the Earth was flat. Certainly the Greek presocratic philosophers Anaximander and Anaximenes (6th century BC) believed it, and I think there is evidence that the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians did too. The Greeks seem to have discovered the sphericity of the Earth some time during the 5th century BC. The most likely discoverer was the (later) presocratic philosopher Parmenides (although it may have been some contemporary or near contemporary of his) and the crucial evidence was probably the shape of the Earth’s shadow during an eclipse. The evidence of ships that disappear over the horizon does not seem to have been enough to clinch it; this phenomenon, after all, would have been familiar to Anaximander and Anaximenes, who lived in a maritime culture, in a costal city. At any rate, Aristotle, in the 4th century BC, clearly regards the sphericity of the Earth as a well established, well known fact, and once Aristotle had written it down, it passed on to future eras of western (and Muslim) culture. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/37 "2013-01-21T09:25:19Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > EDIT: Here’s the entry for lunar eclipses in its entirety: > “The lunar eclipse is an astronomical phenomenon which has several explanations.” > > [http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=The\_Phases\_of\_the\_Moon](http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=The_Phases_of_the_Moon) That’s grand. The link you gave was to phases of the moon, though. Here’s the lunar eclipse one: [http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=The\_Lunar\_Eclipse](http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=The_Lunar_Eclipse) ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/38 "2013-01-21T11:07:25Z")
You can use the method of Eratosthenes (~250 BC): just take a stick, and measure the length of its shadow at the same time in different places. Or, use Foucault’s pendulum: on different latitudes, its plane of oscillation will change with different speeds; in particular, on the equator, it will not change at all, while at the poles, it will rotate once in 24 hrs. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/39 "2013-01-21T14:29:55Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > There _was_ a time when people, even the most advanced thinkers of their culture, believed that the Earth was flat. Certainly the Greek presocratic philosophers Anaximander and Anaximenes (6th century BC) believed it, and I think there is evidence that the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians did too. The Greeks seem to have discovered the sphericity of the Earth some time during the 5th century BC. The most likely discoverer was the (later) presocratic philosopher Parmenides (although it may have been some contemporary or near contemporary of his) and the crucial evidence was probably the shape of the Earth’s shadow during an eclipse. The evidence of ships that disappear over the horizon does not seem to have been enough to clinch it; this phenomenon, after all, would have been familiar to Anaximander and Anaximenes, who lived in a maritime culture, in a costal city. > > At any rate, Aristotle, in the 4th century BC, clearly regards the sphericity of the Earth as a well established, well known fact, and once Aristotle had written it down, it passed on to future eras of western (and Muslim) culture. Yes, but normally you hear blather about Columbus having proved the Earth was not flat, those ancient discoveries of the world’s sphericity having been forgotten during the Middle Ages. No doubt some benighted souls believed all manner of nonsense about falling off the edge, but I would guess most people in Columbus’ day would have scoffed at that. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864/40 "2013-01-21T16:50:28Z")
If you go high enough in a plane or maybe even a mountain can’t you begin to see the curvature of the Earth? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flat-earth-theory-vs-round-earth-theory/647864.md?page=3)