# Flatlining - Is that really the other side? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flatlining-is-that-really-the-other-side/239036 "2004-04-08T22:02:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flatlining-is-that-really-the-other-side/239036/21 "2004-04-10T15:23:36Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I was not suggesting they were - please read my post again - I was suggesting they _might be_ false memories **generated during resuscitation** , false memories of events that seem to have happened while the patient was ‘dead’, without anything having actually been experienced during that time. Research has shown this not to be true. Many of the memories NDEers have take place a long time before resuscitation. In Pam Reynolds case a couple of hours. It is real, we are spirit and eternal. In a few short years everyone will realize it. Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flatlining-is-that-really-the-other-side/239036/22 "2004-04-10T15:24:48Z")
> [@sibyl](#): > > Memory certainly has been “proven” to reside in the brain. In fact, I can simulate a memory using artificial neurons on my computer! Yes, I bet you can, and with an artificial brain. Love ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flatlining-is-that-really-the-other-side/239036/23 "2004-04-10T16:29:29Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I read your refutation and nowhere did it say biological memory had been discovered. Actually it was a beginning study on the theory of the way the brain handles memory. So you are claiming with a straight face that, though we need a key protein in our brains to convert short term memories to long term memories that the actual memories don’t reside in the brain? Right. > [@](#): > > No two brains are alike, but brain cells are alike, if memory was stored anywhere in them it would be easy to see. I suppose you’re a neurologist? You certainly act like you know what you’re talking about. Too bad you clearly have no understanding of how the brain works or how complicated it is. Just because it is complicated and not understood completely yet does not mean we never will or that there is some supernatural force that makes it work. People didn’t used to understand a lot of biology, and somehow science ended up making more sense and actually being provable than half-baked theories about the spirit, supernatural, or whatever else. > [@](#): > > I have read estimates that it would take a brain the size of a watermellon to store just one day’s record of human life, given what we know about storage. Think about it. I know we are always hearing how certain functions are stored or conducted from a certain part of the brain. I’ve read that the moon is made of cheese. I’ve read we never landed on the moon. The people who claim these things are clearly clinging to idiotic theories and possess little ability for critical thoughts on those subjects. > [@](#): > > These claims are good only for the individual brain being discussed. We are not hard wired as some would lead us to believe. When one portion of the brain is damaged, other portions can and do take over the job of the damaged part. This clearly indicates an intelligence greater than the brain itself. In what way does this clearly indicate an intelligence greater than the brain itself? I admit, I’m lost, because your progression does not show me the immense amount of logic that you or someone else has used to deduce this. The brain can clearly be trained, because we spend our whole lives doing that (learning anything is training – how to throw a ball, read, do a handstand, improve your memory all require training the brain). If we can train it for so much, it is completely sensible that we can also retrain it when a section responsible for a certain action fails in some way. > [@](#): > > Brain mapping is a frustrating, and impossible chore. We are not our brains, or our bodies, and in a few more years it will be shown clearly. Brain mapping is a long and frustrating task, I agree. That it is impossible would be interesting news to people like [this](http://neuron.nimh.nih.gov/) that have been doing it for 20-30 years or more. > [@](#): > > [http://ndeweb.com/FAQz23.htm](http://ndeweb.com/FAQz23.htm) > > The above link and the link from it shows what I mean. I am sorry you have been mislead, but there is no biological memory in the brain. > > Love That 1/2 page of blind ascertations and leaps of logic with no evidence whatsoever compared to thousands of studies of the brain and memory clearly show that someone is being misled, but that someone is not me. > [@](#): > > Many have tried, but to date there is no biological evidence of memory residing in the brain, or thoughts, or any other items relating to “mind.” This claim is just so patently absurd, I don’t know why I’m still arguing about it, but here is one more link which is the one I should have used from the get-go. [http://neuron.nimh.nih.gov/](http://neuron.nimh.nih.gov/) Read those pages. They clearly disprove anywhere from one to all of your claims. By the way, do animals other than homo sapiens possess “Mind, Psyche, Spirit?” ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flatlining-is-that-really-the-other-side/239036/24 "2004-04-10T17:05:49Z")
> [@theR](#): > > So you are claiming with a straight face that, though we need a key protein in our brains to convert short term memories to long term memories that the actual memories don’t reside in the brain? Right. > > I suppose you’re a neurologist? You certainly act like you know what you’re talking about. Too bad you clearly have no understanding of how the brain works or how complicated it is. Just because it is complicated and not understood completely yet does not mean we never will or that there is some supernatural force that makes it work. People didn’t used to understand a lot of biology, and somehow science ended up making more sense and actually being provable than half-baked theories about the spirit, supernatural, or whatever else. > > I’ve read that the moon is made of cheese. I’ve read we never landed on the moon. The people who claim these things are clearly clinging to idiotic theories and possess little ability for critical thoughts on those subjects. > > In what way does this clearly indicate an intelligence greater than the brain itself? I admit, I’m lost, because your progression does not show me the immense amount of logic that you or someone else has used to deduce this. The brain can clearly be trained, because we spend our whole lives doing that (learning anything is training – how to throw a ball, read, do a handstand, improve your memory all require training the brain). If we can train it for so much, it is completely sensible that we can also retrain it when a section responsible for a certain action fails in some way. > > Brain mapping is a long and frustrating task, I agree. That it is impossible would be interesting news to people like [this](http://neuron.nimh.nih.gov/) that have been doing it for 20-30 years or more. > > That 1/2 page of blind ascertations and leaps of logic with no evidence whatsoever compared to thousands of studies of the brain and memory clearly show that someone is being misled, but that someone is not me. > > This claim is just so patently absurd, I don’t know why I’m still arguing about it, but here is one more link which is the one I should have used from the get-go. > > [http://neuron.nimh.nih.gov/](http://neuron.nimh.nih.gov/) > > Read those pages. They clearly disprove anywhere from one to all of your claims. > > By the way, do animals other than homo sapiens possess “Mind, Psyche, Spirit?” Please show proof of biological memory stored in the brain. Before you look remember I said biological proof, which is something one can see with a microscope and test with a laser. I know you can’t because it doesn’t exist. All brain mapping is good for only the brain being mapped. I can tell you didn’t follow the link I showed you so here is the followup. [http://ndeweb.com/info02.htm](http://ndeweb.com/info02.htm) This is written by a researcher. The spiritual nature of man is not supernatural or absurd, and I do not use condescending remarks to you. Why would you not want to know the truth. Love ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flatlining-is-that-really-the-other-side/239036/25 "2004-04-10T22:03:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Research has shown this not to be true. Many of the memories NDEers have take place a long time before resuscitation. In Pam Reynolds case a couple of hours. How can we differentiate between a genuine memory of a genuine event that was recorded contemporaneously with a false memory of a false event that was recorded later, but is perceived in every way as if it were a genuine memory of a genuine event that was recorded contemporaneously? ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flatlining-is-that-really-the-other-side/239036/26 "2004-04-11T00:06:23Z")
Yes, I know it was written by a researcher. It also does not support your claims in any way, shape or form. It says some things, and then the NDE make a bunch of leaps of logic which are in no way supported by that article. I’m condescending because you completely ignore all the evidence I presented and are even moving the goalposts now. You are trying to say now that biological proof is “something one can see with a microscope and test with a laser.” I guess you better define your terms next time, because I don’t see how biological proof requires either a microscope or a laser. It also doesn’t matter whether the proof is “biological” or not. Proof is proof. It has been shown that memory resides in the brain. It has not been shown that a spirit exists or that memory resides in the spirit. I read the article in the link when you first posted it. It doesn’t support anything you say except that every brain is different. Wow, imagine that! Every brain is different. And here I thought that, despite every other physical attribute of every person being different, all brains were exactly the same. I mean, my eyes and ears and mouth and pectorals and biceps and knees and feet and everything are different than every other person’s, but of course my brain being different proves that there is a spirit and memory resides in that spirit! Now, answer my question to you. Do animals possess this “Mind, Psyche, Spirit” you speak of? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flatlining-is-that-really-the-other-side/239036/27 "2004-04-11T00:26:36Z")
> [@theR](#): > > Yes, I know it was written by a researcher. It also does not support your claims in any way, shape or form. It says some things, and then the NDE make a bunch of leaps of logic which are in no way supported by that article. > > I’m condescending because you completely ignore all the evidence I presented and are even moving the goalposts now. You are trying to say now that biological proof is “something one can see with a microscope and test with a laser.” I guess you better define your terms next time, because I don’t see how biological proof requires either a microscope or a laser. It also doesn’t matter whether the proof is “biological” or not. Proof is proof. It has been shown that memory resides in the brain. It has not been shown that a spirit exists or that memory resides in the spirit. > > I read the article in the link when you first posted it. It doesn’t support anything you say except that every brain is different. Wow, imagine that! Every brain is different. And here I thought that, despite every other physical attribute of every person being different, all brains were exactly the same. I mean, my eyes and ears and mouth and pectorals and biceps and knees and feet and everything are different than every other person’s, but of course my brain being different proves that there is a spirit and memory resides in that spirit! > > Now, answer my question to you. Do animals possess this “Mind, Psyche, Spirit” you speak of? Why do you think I moved the goal posts? The brain is biological, so if it holds memory that would be biological also. What else could it be. There is no evidence that memory resides in the brain, only that when the brain is stimulated the individual may remember something. The same thing happens when you change the channel on a television. Make a connection and another picture appears, but we all know the picture is not resident in the television. The memory is not resident in the brain. Yes, the answer to your question. All living things have mind, psyche, spirit, or whatever you would call it. It would not make sense otherwise. Love [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flatlining-is-that-really-the-other-side/239036.md?page=1)