# Flawed (but interesting) logic **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 7, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947 "2017-04-07T02:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/61 "2017-04-12T16:14:41Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > When I was in the military, a spouse told me all about how she could figure out military time by subtracting 14 and then adding two. So 1400 would be 14-14=0 and 0+2=2 o’clock! Turns out her husband told her this as a prank. Complicated, but the math is the same for -14+2 or simply -12. Did you explain to her how it really works? > [@](#): > > I’m always puzzled by people who turn the thermostat up to 80 so that the house will get warm more quickly. And you can’t talk them out of it, either. As opposed to what other method? Turning the Thermostat to 80 instead of 70: yes, the heater should work more. Turning the Thermostat to 80 instead of 90: less quick. From what temperature are you starting? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/62 "2017-04-12T16:17:01Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ‘Are these AVX resistors?’ > > ‘I don’t know. I’ll purchase resistors that I _know_ are AVX, and compare these resistors to the known quantity.’ > > … > > ‘I have conducted a through examination on the known AVX resistors and a sample of the unknown resistors. The unknown resistors are identical to the AVX resistors in every measurable way. This does not prove that the unknown resistors were manufactured by AVX. It proves they are identical to resistors manufactured by AVX, and they may have been manufactured by AVX; but they _may not_ have been manufactured by AVX.’ Still doesn’t answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/63 "2017-04-12T16:19:21Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > As opposed to what other method? Turning the Thermostat to 80 instead of 70: yes, the heater should work more. Turning the Thermostat to 80 instead of 90: less quick. From what temperature are you starting? I think the point being: If the house is at 65 degrees, and you want it to be 75 degrees, turning the thermostat to 75 or turning it to 80 will heat the house up to 75 in the same amount of time. Even turning the thermostat to 90 will take the same amount of time to heat the house to 75. That’s why mine is set to 78-79 all year long! ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/64 "2017-04-12T16:23:10Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > If you’ve had the temp set back significantly (let’s say 55 when you desire 68) for long enough - the whole house (walls, furniture, etc) is going to be at that temp. The furnace will heat the air to 68 degrees, then shut off. A lot of the heat in the air will ‘transfer’ to the solid parts of the house, causing it to cool off quickly, and the furnace will kick back on. This cycle will occur until the mass of the house hits 68. On the other hand, if you set the thermostat to 80, you’ll potentially have fewer furnace cycles and may reach optimum temperature quicker. > > I have no idea if the above is true, but it feels possible. And, yeah, I know that’s not why people do it - they think a setting of 80 puts out hotter air than a setting of 68. Actually, that is what I experience when I enter my second flat. The Thermostat is low (13 C), and the walls are cold. I desire 20 C, but if I put in 22 C, it will heat stronger (trying to reach that temp. fast) than when I Input only 20. (Once the air is warm enough, I turn it down from 22 to 20). The real Problem with thermostats is that they don’t measure how the human feels. They have one temp. sensor somewhere (at 5 feet?). The human inside the room is sitting still and feels cold after half an hour, whether it’s 19 or 20 C. Stone walls “emit cold” (yes, yes, I know: they suck up heat, and it takes Ages for Stone to warm enough to stop leeching - however, what it feels like is cold coming from the walls), so the air temp. in front of the sensor doesn’t help the human sitting 2 meters away Close to the wall Feeling cold. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/65 "2017-04-12T16:23:26Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t understand this either. You said your job was to “determine if these were really AVX resistors” > > It doesn’t seem like you did that. Maybe that is why he is confused? > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ‘Are these AVX resistors?’ > > ‘I don’t know. I’ll purchase resistors that I _know_ are AVX, and compare these resistors to the known quantity.’ > > … > > ‘I have conducted a through examination on the known AVX resistors and a sample of the unknown resistors. The unknown resistors are identical to the AVX resistors in every measurable way. This does not prove that the unknown resistors were manufactured by AVX. It proves they are identical to resistors manufactured by AVX, and they may have been manufactured by AVX; but they _may not_ have been manufactured by AVX.’ > [@Slash1972](#): > > Still doesn’t answer the question. I’m with you on this one **manson**. Based on the story that was told, the job wasn’t completed and the explanation was unnecessarily complicated/haughty. The guy just wanted to know if the resistors were the same, and instead of answering the question he was given a too-smart-for-the-masses roundabout explanation. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/66 "2017-04-12T16:25:37Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I think the point being: If the house is at 65 degrees, and you want it to be 75 degrees, turning the thermostat to 75 or turning it to 80 will heat the house up to 75 in the same amount of time. Even turning the thermostat to 90 will take the same amount of time to heat the house to 75. Then you have a different heater than the ones I know. Usually they are programmed to reach the desired temp. as quickly as possible, so first turning to 80, wait until it reaches 75 and then turning down would be quicker than only turning to 75. I haven’t stopped the time, but I know how hot the element gets depending on the Settings, yes, it varies. A hotter element will heat the room quicker than a luke-warm. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/67 "2017-04-12T16:31:16Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I’m with you on this one **manson**. Based on the story that was told, the job wasn’t completed and the explanation was unnecessarily complicated/haughty. > > The guy just wanted to know if the resistors were the same, and instead of answering the question he was given a too-smart-for-the-masses roundabout explanation. It’s a really weird way. Usually, you want to know if the Transistors are made by Company A and not a cheap Chinese knock-off for Quality reasons (which could ruin wherever you plan to put them into). But if the in-depth testing Shows they are of the same Quality, not worse, then the answer should be “they are the same Quality”, not the answer given. If, on the other Hand, the Manager is worried about guarantees if he doesn’t use Transistors made by Company A, and thinks that he might get in Trouble down the line and be called out for not deducing that “suspicious markings must mean knockoff, and only use official markings”, then knowing whether they were made by Company A is as important as the Quality itself. It still leaves open, if it’s so important, why not buy directly from Company A in the first place, since it’s possible (as shown with the second Batch?) Or contact Company A, explaining that you are worried you got knock-Offs, maybe they will tell you that markings opü mean it’s a licensed contractor, but the same Quality and guarantee? Was the possible savings worth the time spent on several tests?? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/68 "2017-04-12T16:31:20Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > The guy just wanted to know if the resistors were the same, and instead of answering the question he was given a too-smart-for-the-masses roundabout explanation. I don’t know what **Crafter\_Man** does for a living. In many applications, components are specified and substitutions are not allowed. If the specification calls for ‘resistors manufactured by AVX’, then exactly-identical ones not made by AVX would be disallowed. If the identical substitutes were used, and the component failed, then the company would be liable. Given what **Crafter\_Man** posted, it seems to me that the question of whether the resistors were made by AVX is unanswerable. The only answer is ‘These resistors are identical in every way to AVX resistors, and they may actually _be_ AVX resistors. But I cannot tell you _in fact_ that they are AVX resistors. Whether to use them is above my pay grade.’ ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/69 "2017-04-12T16:42:29Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > I haven’t stopped the time, but I know how hot the element gets depending on the Settings, yes, it varies. A hotter element will heat the room quicker than a luke-warm. If that is the case, then yes, it would heat the room faster. Not sure if that is the case with standard US heaters though. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/70 "2017-04-12T16:44:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > it seems to me that the question of whether the resistors were made by AVX is unanswerable Then he probably shouldn’t have said “My job was to determine if these were really AVX resistors” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/71 "2017-04-12T16:45:56Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I’m with you on this one **manson** Holy crap, this makes 2 people in two different topics that have agreed with me! Must be because I’m on antibiotics. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/72 "2017-04-12T17:13:12Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I’m with you on this one **manson**. Based on the story that was told, the job wasn’t completed and the explanation was unnecessarily complicated/haughty. > > The guy just wanted to know if the resistors were the same, and instead of answering the question he was given a too-smart-for-the-masses roundabout explanation. How the hell was that a too-smart-for-the-masses explanation? It seemed absolutely clear, concise, and accurate what **Crafter Man** was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/73 "2017-04-12T17:43:26Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Then you have a different heater than the ones I know. Usually they are programmed to reach the desired temp. as quickly as possible, so first turning to 80, wait until it reaches 75 and then turning down would be quicker than only turning to 75. > > I haven’t stopped the time, but I know how hot the element gets depending on the Settings, yes, it varies. A hotter element will heat the room quicker than a luke-warm. What kind of heater do you have? A forced air furnance (pretty standard in the US) generates a single temperature of air. I’m guessing you’ve got some sort of electric heat? Even for that, what I’m familiar with in the US still has a single heat level (some portable room heaters may have a high/low setting, but that is independent of the thermostat setting AFAIK). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/74 "2017-04-12T17:48:29Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > We received 35 resistors for analysis. They were reportedly manufactured by AVX, but the markings looked weird. My job was to determine if these were really AVX resistors. So I purchased 10, new AVX resistors, and compared these to the 35 “suspect” resistors. I performed chemical analysis, electrical characterization, cross-sectioned them, X-rayed them, etc. I did not observe any differences. > > Yesterday’s conversation with my supervisor: > > Supervisor: “So you proved the 35 suspect resistors _are_ manufactured by AVX?” > Me: “No. I simply didn’t see any differences.” > Supervisor: “So that means the 35 suspect resistors are manufactured by AVX.” > Me: “No.” > Supervisor: “Huh?” > Me: “I simply didn’t see any differences between the 35 suspect resistors and the 10 new ones manufactured by AVX.” > Supervisor: “So that means the 35 suspect resistors _are_ manufactured by AVX.” > Me: “No. I simply didn’t see any differences. My null hypothesis was that there were no differences, and I did not reject the null hypothesis.” > Supervisor: “Huh?” > > This went on for 15 minutes. > > He still doesn’t understand. He wanted a simple yes/no answer. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/75 "2017-04-12T18:15:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > He wanted a simple yes/no answer. The evidence does not support a simple yes-or-no answer. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/76 "2017-04-12T18:24:51Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > A woman I know has also explained to me that a stock is more likely to go up in price after a stock split. For instance, if a stock’s price is $50 that might be as high as it can go, but if it splits to $25 then it has $25 more room to grow before reaching its maximum price of $50. To be fair, there is enough psychology and perception imbeddee in Stock prices that could actualy be true to an extent. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/77 "2017-04-12T18:25:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > He wanted a simple yes/no answer. OK, so this conversation is better, eh?: * * * Supervisor: “So you proved the 35 suspect resistors are manufactured by AVX?” Me: “No” Supervisor: “So that means the 35 suspect resistors are not manufactured by AVX.” Me: “No.” Supervisor: “Huh?” Me: “I simply didn’t see any differences between the 35 suspect resistors and the 10 new ones manufactured by AVX.” Supervisor: “So that means the 35 suspect resistors are manufactured by AVX.” Me: “No.” * * * I somehow don’t think that works better. The answers originally given are straightforward with full information necessary to meaningfully answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/78 "2017-04-12T18:27:36Z")
Author Stephen King tells the tale of meeting a woman at the grocery store who recognized him and said “I don’t like the scary things you write.” King: What sort of writing do you like? Lady: Uplifting things. Like The Shawshank Redemption. King: I wrote that. Lady sniffs and declares: _No you did not_ Proving "If the facts don’t support your opinion, the facts must be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/79 "2017-04-12T18:39:00Z")
Here’s one that I think is at least tangentially appropriate. It certainly bothers me. I mean, I really got irritated by this one. Our local CVS is currently having some issues with their HVAC, and as such it’s just blazing hot in there all the time. This has been going on for a few weeks. Their solution has been to bring in some large, rolling, temporary AC units spaced around the store. The problem is that they haven’t run the exhaust ports anywhere. There’s just a stub of an outlet on the top of the unit. So cold air pours out of the vents on the side, and _even hotter_ air blasts out of the top. The net being that the temperature is being **raised** now, not lowered. [Check it out.](http://i.imgur.com/z0Iwj4X.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947/80 "2017-04-12T18:48:39Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > We received 35 resistors for analysis. They were reportedly manufactured by AVX, but the markings looked weird. My job was to determine if these were really AVX resistors. So I purchased 10, new AVX resistors, and compared these to the 35 “suspect” resistors. I performed chemical analysis, electrical characterization, cross-sectioned them, X-rayed them, etc. I did not observe any differences. > > Yesterday’s conversation with my supervisor: > > Supervisor: “So you proved the 35 suspect resistors _are_ manufactured by AVX?” > Me: “No. I simply didn’t see any differences.” > Supervisor: “So that means the 35 suspect resistors are manufactured by AVX.” > Me: “No.” > Supervisor: “Huh?” > Me: “I simply didn’t see any differences between the 35 suspect resistors and the 10 new ones manufactured by AVX.” > Supervisor: “So that means the 35 suspect resistors _are_ manufactured by AVX.” > Me: “No. I simply didn’t see any differences. My null hypothesis was that there were no differences, and I did not reject the null hypothesis.” > Supervisor: “Huh?” > > This went on for 15 minutes. > > He still doesn’t understand. Why didn’t you just ask AVX? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-but-interesting-logic/783947.md?page=5)